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Goner Message Board / ???? / The Appearance of Free Will vs The Reality of Destiny
Posted: Jun 15, 2008 9:17 pm
 
Posted: Jun 15, 2008 11:18 pm
 
also available to listen online...
http://blip.tv/file/996009
Posted: Jun 15, 2008 11:51 pm
 
Well I didn't listen to these, but I do completely understand the Free Will vs. Predestination paradox that is prevalent within in Christianity. While we still appear to have complete free will, it is still all a part of God's great plan. At the same time we cannot just write off all of our actions as a part of the greater plan of God's, nor can we become complacent and just say "It doesn't matter what I do, because it is all part of God's plan". You should still attempt to live your life according to the bible as much as possible simply because we don't know God's plan. The main reason it is difficult to get past the the complete free will line of thinking is because man's mind is limited in it's understanding of how far removed from that of the divinity, and the universe in general.

Jesus people still believe in this crap?
Posted: Jun 16, 2008 12:03 am
 
we are only free to do that which we are capable of doing, and that which we can conceive. the bible says that our days are logged in Gods book before we have lived even one of them. it also says that all things are His will and that he made the wicked for the day of evil. we are dead in our trespasses yet holy in His eyes if we truly believe in Him. of course one who believes in God will attempt to live according to the Bible, but theres no reason to beat yourself up about it because he has already decided who will be saved, and it is through His sovereign grace alone, and not through any works we may or may not do.

person 1 lives a good life, treating people well and helping those less fortunate. however, his intellect convinces him that the concept of God is meaningless.

person 2 is evil, spends his life raping and murdering, yet on his deathbed the Holy Ghost moves him to faith and he finds God just before he dies.

person 1 goes to hell. person 2 goes to heaven.

your interpretation of the issues is remarkably clear and concise. as far as "Jesus people" believing it, i doubt it, nowadays the church is all about inclusionism and filling their pockets in the name of God. to teach that some people are irrevocably cursed before they are even born wouldnt exactly fill the pews or the collection plates.
Posted: Jun 16, 2008 12:03 am
 
I didn't listen to it either. So I'll pipe in.

The way I see it, any god-fearing "victim" of any "crime" knows that it's all part of god's plan. And that they should grow from it and turn their horrible experience into something that benefits all humankind. In turn, these good works' beneficiaries, if they are god-fearing, will use any kindness they've received to further help those less fortunate. The wicked, however, will engage in sloth or self pity. Adversity is the true judge of humanity. And the lords prosecutors (or perhaps the operators of his holyness' sting operations) are known to the world as "criminals." It's horribly derogatory, but part of the investigation. Those of us who toil in it's work toil not for fame or fortune but simply to ascertain each man's true nature.

Or it's all just a bunch of shit that happens.
Posted: Jun 16, 2008 12:08 am
 
oops I typed that before I read brad's response.

Didn't read it just now either....
Posted: Jun 16, 2008 12:47 am
 
listen to the damn sermon...
Posted: Jun 16, 2008 1:47 am
 
sermons are for girls
sinning like a godless heathen helps build up a healthy and strong something or other
Posted: Jun 16, 2008 1:54 am
 
go wash your hands, fruitcake.

Psalms 26:6
I will wash my hands in innocency; so will I compass Thine altar, O LORD.
Posted: Jun 16, 2008 2:02 am
 
you misspelled innocences.
Posted: Jun 16, 2008 2:18 am
 
not one jot or tittle.
Posted: Jun 16, 2008 2:19 am
 
here's the text:

Well folks, the summer is here and everyone wants to get outside and enjoy the weather, but let's not forget who is responsible for all the good things this season, that's right, the Lord in heaven. Likewise, it's also important to remember that all the bad things that happen are also His will.

That's what I would like to talk to you about today, good people, the appearance of free will versus the reality of destiny. The Lord has chosen, for whatever reason, to save some while damning others to the fiery pit of hell. It is not our place to question the will of God Almighty.

For instance, in Exodus, the Lord hardens pharaoh's heart against the children of Israel. One may wonder why God would choose to do such a thing, which culminated in His angel of death killing the firstborn, and presumably innocent, children of all the unbelievers in Egypt. Well folks, its part of His eternal will, and unless you would like to join them in the lake of fire its probably best to leave it alone. We are born into sin, and so were those children. Deal with it.

For whatever reason, the Lord has chosen to save some and curses others. Faith is a gift, and its not something one can choose to have or not to have. Either the Holy Ghost is alive in you or it isn't. As for myself, I could no more stop believing in God than I could stop believing in the floor, and fall this very second into the basement!

The reality is we are born into a certain place and time, of a certain race and parents, all of which we have no control over, but rather was predestined for us by almighty God. Free will is limited to that of which we can conceive, and that which we are capable of.

Ephesians 1:4 through 5 makes it plain : "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will"

Ephesians 2 teaches, and I quote: "God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ by grace you have been saved" unquote.

NOONE is without sin. It is ONLY through the sovereign grace of our Lord Jesus Christ that some are saved. It is not through any good works of our own.

To continue with Ephesians 2, "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works"

Romans 10 makes it clear some folks are unable to hear the word of God. The Holy Ghost is only present in the elect, that is, those whom God has chosen to give the gift of eternal life.

To wit:

"How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard?"

Again, some are chosen, through no works of their own, while others God has decided to damn to the fires of hell.

Romans 9: verse 16 through 18 sums it up quite nicely

"So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires."

So called "free will" is nothing but a farce! Here's yet more proof that regardless if you mock God or worship Him, you are still doing His bidding:

Your eyes have seen my unformed substance;
And in Your book were all written
The days that were ordained for me,
When as yet there was not one of them.
Psalms 139:16

You may be wondering at this point, especially if you were brought up in the faith you thought to be Christian, "why have I not been taught these things before?"

Let me assure you, this is the word of God, as presented in the King James version of the bible, which is the closest you are going to get to the true word of God without learning to be fluent in Hebrew and Greek.

The reason mainstream churches don't teach the true word of God as its written in the bible is because they have given themselves over to the false doctrines of inclusionism! If they taught the truth, that most people are irrevocably cursed to an eternity of damnation, how would they fill their church pews and collection plates?

They teach faulty theology because these days, the pure unadulterated word of the Lord isn't popular. its inconvenient and people don't like its clear and unobstructed message, that some people are chosen before birth to live with the Lord in heaven, and some are cursed to hell forever.

The Gospel of John preaches in plain language that some folks are unable to hear the good word, to wit:

John 8:47
"He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God."

That some are not to be saved is plainly the will of God, ALL things are His will.

Ephesians 11 says it clearly

"He worketh all things after the counsel of His own will."

ALL THINGS

GOT IT???

In case you still don't understand, here's yet another verse from the Good Book

Proverbs 16:4
The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

EVERYBODY doesn't hear Gods word. EVERYBODY cannot be saved!

Only those whom God has chosen as His elect can be saved and anyone who preaches otherwise is a false prophet concerned only with filling his pockets with the cash money of unsaved heathens!

That is predestination, that is what the bible preaches, and if you call yourself a Christian, that is what you had better believe in. The word of God is not up for debate! it cannot to be voted on! it is most certainly not a popularity contest where you can pick and choose to believe that which suits you most or is convenient.

If you have heard these words and they have no meaning to you, I'm sorry, but there is likely no hope for you. The Lord has chosen to save some and curse others, there is nothing anyone can do to change that. It probably doesn't even pay to pray at this point.

The only other possibility is you don't recognize the true word of God because no one preaches it anymore! How many preachers do you think there would be if they preached these truths! And here comes another one they neglect to mention while filling their pockets with dirty money.

True gospel preachers shouldn't be soliciting donations AT ALL, EVER!!!


1 Corinthians 9:18 teaches "What is my reward then? Verily that when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel."

Preachers are again commanded by the good book in 1 Peter 5:2 to

"Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;"

I have one final bible passage for you to consider,

(2 Timothy 4:2-4).

"Preach the word; be instant in season, out of
season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all
longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come
when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after
their own lusts shall they heap to themselves
teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn
away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned
unto fables"

I pray that you all have the desire to, and will, learn, if it is part of Gods plan that you do so. If not, I pray for your soul and that He have mercy upon it.

In Jesus name,

Amen.
Posted: Jun 16, 2008 3:27 am
 
go wash your hands, fruitcake.


go brush your teeth, chief bleeding gums.
Posted: Jun 16, 2008 3:55 am
 
ALL THINGS are God's will. that includes my dental care, queefstain...
Posted: Jun 16, 2008 4:58 am
 
Heaven is there where Hell is
and Hell is down on Earth
Posted: Jun 16, 2008 5:06 am
 
this is the ghoul's night out suffer unto me devils born in angels' arms ghouls in heavens fall this is the ghoul's night out all ghouls go to hell humans held on eating flesh it's my destiny ghouls, ghouls, ghouls night out ghouls, ghouls, ghouls night out ghouls, ghouls, ghouls night out ghouls, ghouls, ghouls night out ghouls, ghouls ghouls, ghouls, destiny hell is where you want to be i feel the hell on you and me i feel it every day hell is where you want to be i feel the hell on you and me it never goes away ghouls, ghouls, ghouls night out ghouls, ghouls, ghouls night out ghouls, ghouls, ghouls night out ghouls, ghouls, ghouls night out ghouls, ghouls ghouls, ghouls, destiny this is the ghouls night out suffer unto me devils born in angels' arms ghouls in heavens fall this is the ghouls night out all ghouls go to hell humans held on eating flesh it's my destiny to eat meat, to eat flesh it's my destiny to eat meat, to eat flesh it's my destiny to eat meat, to eat flesh it's my destiny to eat meat, to eat flesh it's my destiny
Posted: Jun 16, 2008 6:22 am
 
ALL THINGS are God's



suzanne somers, AIDS, and 9/11?

funny guy
Posted: Jun 16, 2008 10:31 am
 
All the guy is sayin is that is really doesn't make a fuckin difference if you believe in god or not, or if you molest your way through life or not: you're fucked forever from day 1, or you're not.

Now that is some serious preachin'.
Posted: Jun 16, 2008 10:40 am
 
It was God's will for Brad to call satch a queefstain. God is pretty fucking funny!
Posted: Jun 16, 2008 10:59 am
 
Hell is down on Earth

What if you're Rocco Siffredi?
Posted: Jun 16, 2008 11:14 am
 
The living proof! Biggest dick ever.
Posted: Jun 16, 2008 1:18 pm
 
It was God's will for Brad to call satch a queefstain.
moreover, it was God who invented the queef and the stain.
God told me to make some mac and cheese now.
thy will be done.
Posted: Jun 16, 2008 3:52 pm
 
I don't know what y'all are on about, Free Willy is a GREAT movie!!!
Posted: Jun 16, 2008 6:14 pm
 
naturally, as it was the will of God.
Posted: Jun 16, 2008 6:34 pm | Edited by: satchmykels
 
Free Willy
Posted: Jun 16, 2008 6:39 pm
 
Posted: Jun 16, 2008 6:54 pm
 
What if you're Rocco Siffredi?

you make me a peetza pye
Posted: Jun 16, 2008 7:50 pm
 
You are forgetting Malachi 1:2-3. "I have loved you," says the LORD. But you say, "How have You loved us?" "Was not Esau Jacob's brother?" declares the LORD. "Yet I have loved Jacob; but I have hated Esau, and I have made his mountains a desolation and appointed his inheritance for the jackals of the wilderness."
Posted: Jun 16, 2008 8:09 pm
 
theres plenty of relevant scripture i couldve quoted, but i think i made my points clearly enough with the ones i chose.
Posted: Jun 16, 2008 8:18 pm
 
but i think i made my points clearly enough

you truly are delusional then
Posted: Jun 16, 2008 8:20 pm
 
or you are without comprehension.
Posted: Jun 16, 2008 8:22 pm
 
Psalm 31:18 Let the lying lips be mute, which speak arrogantly against the righteous with pride and contempt.

John 15:18-21
“If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you... If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you... because they do not know Him who sent Me."
Posted: Jun 16, 2008 8:28 pm
 
poor persecuted, brad

cops at your door again...maybe they just want to witness to you
Posted: Jun 16, 2008 8:47 pm
 
To be fair to Brad everything he posted in this thread has made perfect sense, from a point of view that one would take if they accepted Christianity.
Posted: Jun 16, 2008 8:53 pm
 
maybe his fatalistic brand of christianity...certainly not every strain
Posted: Jun 16, 2008 10:09 pm | Edited by: Paul Lips
 
If I ever see Jesus, I'm going to ask him if I can be reincarnated as Rocco Siffredi.
Posted: Jun 16, 2008 11:41 pm
 
maybe his fatalistic brand of christianity...certainly not every strain

Certainly not, but what he is saying makes sense.

For the sake of argument let us say that Christianity is true, that there is a Creator, who sent his son, who is also a part of the deity, to die for our sins. Now this God that we have established is omnipotent. How is it that any thing we do that God cannot know about? How can we limit God to not knowing the future?
Posted: Jun 16, 2008 11:57 pm
 
brad's not talking about knowing though...he's talking about God has willed everything to happen, so it will be. If you ask me that's more than knowing. It's the difference between me knowing ahead of time that you will respond to this post versus me forcing you to respond to this post (and I dictated exactly what you would write); and therefore man has only the illusion of free will.

It's part of the reason lots of people can't wrap their head around the idea of God since, according to this , he causes the school bus to veer off the cliff killing all the children and causes the pedophile to rape and murder the 3 year old down the block.
Posted: Jun 17, 2008 12:20 am
 
Well to me God knowing is the same thing as God willing. He created this entire universe, everything that he did, from Adam first deciding to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, to the concentration camps in Germany, all come from his initial plan of his creation. As limited as our human minds can comprehend, it is still all a part of his divine plan for everything. Look at the story of Job.

At the same time, coming up in a Christian household, this realization of the way that Christianity is set up as a religion, the truth and acceptance of this notion made the whole concept difficult for me to accept. Why would an all loving God, create such evil and destruction in the world, all in the some sort of great showing of his divinity?
Posted: Jun 17, 2008 12:38 am
 
it's the same as anything....just cause you know that girl is gonna break your heart do you choose not to pursue her and have some fun times in the meantime...just cause you know the band is gonna break up and you're gonna be thousands of dollars in debt and people are gonna develop drug addictions and possibly die do you choose not to start it and have fun regardless for as long as you can?

did you wish for all the bad to happen?
Posted: Jun 17, 2008 12:48 am
 
But the thing is WE don't know what is going to happen, so we still attempt to live our lives the way we see fit. At the same time God does, and God willed it to happen, it doesn't mean we should just say fuck it, but still no matter what we do it was God's will and he has preordained everything. It's a paradox for sure, but still makes sense if you think about it.
Posted: Jun 17, 2008 12:56 am
 
sorry gotta disagree

knowing and causing are two different things
Posted: Jun 17, 2008 1:11 am
 
divine plan is a crock of shit. anyone who would willingly let 90 percent of the crap that happens go on shouldn't fucking be worshiped. i don't give a fuck if he supposedly will make me burn in eternal hell for saying that either. just cuz someone is almighty don't fuckin' make him a worthwhile entity to worship. just sounds like a jealous, fucked up shitmonger. and i just don't believe in any of this shit. so fuck it. oh goddamn well. if i'm going to hell, i'll see you fuckers there.

oh and all hail the flying spaghetti monster. yeah.
Posted: Jun 17, 2008 1:22 am | Edited by: Davie
 

knowing and causing are two different things


Ok so God created man knowing all the misery that would happen after he did, how is this different from causing?
Posted: Jun 17, 2008 1:32 am | Edited by: Mark Beef
 
do you think your parents envisioned you to have a spot free no problem life?
or anybody's parents did that?

man creates all the woe, and man creates all the good...if there is a god he abandoned us long ago to our fate with maybe a nudge here or there
Posted: Jun 17, 2008 1:59 am
 
God ... causes the school bus to veer off the cliff killing all the children and causes the pedophile to rape and murder the 3 year old down the block.

that is exactly what the bible teaches.

27But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go.

see, the Lord directly cause the killing of all the firstborn males of ancient Egypt.

29And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.

30And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead.

31And he called for Moses and Aaron by night, and said, Rise up, and get you forth from among my people, both ye and the children of Israel; and go, serve the LORD, as ye have said.


thats simply one example of even more than the Lord's will.
the lord directly killed all those presumably innocent people.

NOONE IS INNOCENT according to Christianity!

it is a gift to be saved, accorded only to some, at the very whim of God alimghty.

listen to the sermon.

i covered all this already.

THE WORD OF GOD IS NOT A POPULARITY CONTEST

it is only the question of your immortal soul and if it will spend eternity in hell or heaven.


Psalms 19:8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.

Proverbs 30:5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.

"He worketh ALL THINGS after the counsel of His own will."--Ephesians i. 11.

For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. James 2.10

2 Timothy 3:16-17: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."

Matthew 5:18
18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

"And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified." Rom. 8:28-30

"who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity, " 2Ti. 1:9

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Psalms 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

Psalms 135:6 Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places.
Posted: Jun 17, 2008 2:00 am
 
my next sermon is prophecy = fulfilled.
Posted: Jun 17, 2008 2:03 am
 
22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

matthew 5:45
that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
Posted: Jun 17, 2008 2:03 am
 
brad

you'll never be Gene Scott

sorry
Posted: Jun 17, 2008 2:03 am
 
you havent listened to my sermon.
Posted: Jun 17, 2008 2:04 am
 
that was a good doc, though
too bad there was no bambi bridges (melissa scott)
Posted: Jun 17, 2008 2:36 am
 
you havent listened to my sermon.

and never will

I had enough of that shit from birth til 14
Posted: Jun 17, 2008 2:38 am
 
piece be with you.
i'll prey for you.

ps: your an idiot.
Posted: Jun 17, 2008 2:39 am
 
'sup?
Posted: Jun 17, 2008 2:48 am
 
God ... causes the school bus to veer off the cliff killing all the children and causes the pedophile to rape and murder the 3 year old down the block.

that is exactly what the bible teaches.



so there's still hope for a last boys of krypton reunion???
Posted: Jun 17, 2008 2:50 am
 
never.
Posted: Jun 17, 2008 2:52 am
 
never.

god may disagree
Posted: Jun 17, 2008 2:59 am
 
that is always a possibility
Posted: Jun 17, 2008 2:59 am
 
please capitalize God if you wish to discuss Him in the future.
Posted: Jun 17, 2008 3:05 am
 
please refrain from contradicting yourself in the future.
Posted: Jun 17, 2008 3:07 am
 
please capitalize God if you wish to discuss Him in the future.

my spelling is god's will
Posted: Jun 17, 2008 3:37 am
 
God Hates nebvbraska
Posted: Jun 17, 2008 3:39 am
 
God Hates
Posted: Jun 17, 2008 6:22 am
 
Hell is down on Earth

That's why I just bought a condo.
Posted: Jun 17, 2008 6:32 am
 
Ezekiel 20:21 -- "She was infatuated with their male prostitutes, whose members were like those of donkeys and whose seed came in floods like that of stallions."

Jeremiah 25:27 -- "This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel says: 'Drink, get drunk and vomit, and fall to rise no more.'"
Posted: Jun 17, 2008 9:55 am | Edited by: Davie
 
man creates all the woe, and man creates all the good...if there is a god he abandoned us long ago to our fate with maybe a nudge here or there

I agree I'm just attempting to argue from the perspective of a bible believer that's all.
do you think your parents envisioned you to have a spot free no problem life?
or anybody's parents did that?

Parents are not God, they are not omnipotent.
Posted: Jun 17, 2008 11:32 am
 
Parents are not God, they are not omnipotent.

just because someone is omnipotent does not mean that they cause everything

god could refuse to use it's power as well, like as you stated earlier in Job's case

not all bible believers believe that god is an active player in today's sin fallen world
Posted: Jun 17, 2008 3:13 pm
 
its END TIMES, these things were revealed in the book of revelation, and elsewhere in the bible! that will all be covered in my next sermon, prophecy = fulfilled.
Posted: Jun 17, 2008 3:16 pm
 
I'll get me coat.
Posted: Jun 17, 2008 3:23 pm
 
Revelation 22:7 "Behold, I come quickly." Blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
Posted: Jun 17, 2008 3:29 pm
 
Revelation 22:7 "Behold, I come quickly."

Poor Mary.

or,
Revelation 22:7 "Behold, I come quickly."

Ever heard of warpspeed, sucker?

or,

well, whatever.
Posted: Jun 18, 2008 5:34 am
 
Posted: Jun 18, 2008 6:27 am
 
i know one thing: god fucking hates spelling conventions. oh, and he hates Kobe, the raper.
Posted: Jun 18, 2008 6:34 am
 
god fucking hates spelling conventions

so He did make us to be just like Him
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