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Goner Message Board / ???? / Phil "The Scooter" Rizzuto - Rest In Peace
Posted: Aug 14, 2007 6:28 pm
 
September 25, 1917 August 14, 2007

A Major League Baseball player and radio/television sports announcer, known both for his skills as a player and his popular but idiosyncratic style as a broadcaster. Rizzuto had been in declining health for several years, and had lived in nursing home in West Orange, N.J...

Phil - We hardly knew yee...
Posted: Aug 15, 2007 12:08 am
 
6 mill yankees fans to go
Posted: Aug 15, 2007 12:48 am
 
It is a very sad day in America.
Phil Rizzuto...a great shortstop on a great team.
A great American on a great American institution.
Thank you, Mr. Steinbrenner.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=12785594

On the day Phil Rizutto turned 58, Jackie Wilson had a stroke on stage.
Posted: Aug 15, 2007 1:02 am
 
THE ZEN POETRY OF SCOOTER

You know,
Some kid wrote me a letter.
You and Murcer,
I know,
Every time Murcer says
I make oh for four and two errors.
Some guy wrote,
Which I haven't gotten yet,
He wrote it to Yankee Stadium,
But by the way,
You're doing the play-by-play, Seaver.
So go ahead.
I was gonna tell you something,
But I forgot what it was.
Go ahead.
Posted: Aug 15, 2007 1:04 am
 
The Yankees have had a traumatic four days.
Actually five days.
That terrible crash with Thurman Munson.
To go through all that agony,
And then today,
You and I along with the rest of the team
Flew to Canton for the services,
And the family ...
Very upset.

You know, it might,
It might sound a little corny.
But we have the most beautiful full moon tonight.
And the crowd,
Enjoying whatever is going on right now.
They say it might sound corny,
But to me it's some kind of a,
Like an omen.

Both the moon and Thurman Munson,
Both ascending up into heaven.
I just can't get it out of my mind.
I just saw that full moon,
And it just reminded me of Thurman.
And that's it.

Ron Guidry pitching to Lee May
Fifth inning, bases empty, no outs
Orioles lead 1-0
Posted: Aug 15, 2007 1:06 am
 
Bobby Thigpen out there.
Number thirty-seven.
That's the guy in the Peanuts cartoon.
Pigpen.
That's a joke.
That guy in Peanuts with Charlie Brown.
He's always dirty.
Oh yeah.
Every day.
Orphan Annie.
You know,
She hasn't aged in thirty-two years.
Posted: Aug 15, 2007 8:02 am
 
6 mill yankees fans to go

There's more than 6 mill, but thanks for declaring this...

I've gotten into arguments with kids on the Stonerrock.com board who think you need a mountain of stats to qualify for the MLB Hall of Fame. It's silly. Lost in all of that is an appreciation for anybody who could just flat out play. Rizzuto is one of them. His stats aren't so hot, but the man was so good that history will not remember him as an infielder, but as a baseball player.

Let the stat freaks sit up in the luxury boxes with the beancounters. Meanwhile, you can catch me behind homeplate drinking a beer with the scouts!

RIP Scooter. I hate your Yankee guts, but your work here will never be forgotten.
Posted: Aug 15, 2007 12:36 pm
 
there was a chick in Nantucket
she used to live in Pawtucket
i grabbed her hair,
took her up the stair
and said, fuck it, not suck it.

ta da!
Posted: Aug 15, 2007 12:39 pm
 
ackie Wilson had a stroke on stage.


now, that was a sad day...


sweet
Posted: Aug 15, 2007 10:24 pm
 
Lost in all of that is an appreciation for anybody who could just flat out play. Rizzuto is one of them.



this is utter and complete bullshit. he got in because he played for the yankees. if he put up the same stats, and "just flat out play[ed]" for the st. louis browns he wouldn't have ever been mentioned. he got in because the veterans' committee was stacked, hence yogi berra's quote of "we got you in".


hey, marty barret and freddie patek could flat out play too, should they be in the hall?
Posted: Aug 15, 2007 10:30 pm
 
i always liked that one armed dude for the st Louis browns

i also think that phil doesn't belong but throw in the world series he won and the broadcasting legacy (??) i ain't going to bitch that much

bert blyleven
jim rice
robbie alomar

they belong
Posted: Aug 15, 2007 10:41 pm
 
Holy Toledo! .... he's dead.
Posted: Aug 16, 2007 4:17 am
 
this is utter and complete bullshit.

Wrong.

he got in because the veterans' committee was stacked, hence yogi berra's quote of "we got you in".

Don't think the Vet's Committee, who is made up of ex-players, know more about what it takes to succeed at the MLB than the BBWAA?


hey, marty barret and freddie patek could flat out play too, should they be in the hall?

Gosh, I don't know... Did Marty Barret or Freddie Patek make it to 5 All Star Teams, win an MVP or even finish 2nd (like Rizzuto did in 1949 to Ted Williams)? Were either one an important part of a team that won World Series in 6 out of 7 years? Did either of them bat .324 in a season?

Hell, let me answer a couple of those questions fo you...

Barret never made an All-Star team & Patek made 3. Rizzuto made 5.

Barret finished 17th in AL MVP voting in 1986, & Patek finished 6th in 1971. From 1941 to 1953, Rizzuto got MVP votes in every year he played except 1946 & 1947. He spent 1943 - 1945 in the US Navy when wars really meant something. He won in 1950, finished 2nd to Ted Williams in 1949, & even in 1953, he finished 6th.

Barret was a great bunter, but Rizzuto was arguably the best bunter ever. Barret does have a highly admirable stat in that he whiffed a microscopic 209 times in 3378 career at-bats. IF are seriously make this argument, though, you either are a Yankee hater or need to go sit in the luxury boxes with the beancounters.
Posted: Aug 16, 2007 3:38 pm
 
. From 1941 to 1953, Rizzuto got MVP votes in every year he played except 1946 & 1947.

yeah but that's voted on by sportswriters whom you've already inferred don't know shit.


it's the hall of fame, i just happen to be of the mind that if a guy has a 13 year career and hits .275 or less in 10 of those years he shouldn't be in. but if you think a guy with jim gantner-like stats is a hall of fame player then that's what you think.
Posted: Aug 16, 2007 3:45 pm
 
i like counting beans

until HOF is based on dick size and three ways with murray chass. staas shd BEGIN the debate


he sure ain't the worse HOF SS


HALL OF FAME SHORTSTOPS
82.3 Honus Wagner
50.1 George Davis
45.7 Ozzie Smith
43.6 Lou Boudreau
43.3 Arky Vaughan
42.4 Luke Appling
41.2 Robin Yount
39.6 Joe Cronin
38.4 Bobby Wallace
36.2 Dave Bancroft
35.2 Joe Sewell
27.2 Ernie Banks
26.8 Hughie Jennings


22.0 Travis Jackson
19.5 Joe Tinker
18.7 Phil Rizzuto
16.3 Pee Wee Reese
14.1 Luis Aparicio
10.3 Rabbit Maranville
7.7 John Montgomery Ward

BELONG IN THE HALL: Bill Dahlen (48.5), Jack Glasscock (36.6), Alan Trammell (31.8), Art Fletcher (27.2), Jim Fregosi (25.5).
NOT YET ELIGIBLE: Alex Rodriguez (51.5), Cal Ripken (44.1), Barry Larkin (42.9).
ON THE VERGE: Nomar Garciaparra (24.9), Miguel Tejada (23.6).
Posted: Aug 16, 2007 3:48 pm
 
so today playing

jeter
tejada
a rod
reyes/h ramirez
omar vizquel


larkin mos def

trammell? boy, maybe

the prob?

all of sudden letting luis/scooter/rabbit in may take away larkin/trammell

and omar vizquel belongs
Posted: Aug 16, 2007 3:52 pm | Edited by: michael baker
 
oh btw from another thread:

Jack Glasscock


is my nickname
Posted: Aug 16, 2007 3:59 pm
 
On the day Phil Rizutto turned 58, Jackie Wilson had a stroke on stage.

At the Latin Casino in Cherry Hill NJ! Used to drive past there pretty frequently.
Posted: Aug 17, 2007 4:11 am
 
if you think a guy with jim gantner-like stats is a hall of fame player then that's what you think.

Rizzuto was a straight baseball warroir. Gantner was definately not.

yeah but that's voted on by sportswriters whom you've already inferred don't know shit.

Stop it. That's clearly not what I inferred. I do think the BBWAA has blown it on a couple of players especially Bert Blyleven, hence the necessity of the Vet's Committee. What can I say? I'm a baseball guy & although I dig stats, I am not married to them. I could see why Jack Morris or Kirk Gibson might get elected by the Vet's Committee.

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you. In fact, I would like to drink a few $8 beers with you at a game sometime. I just think in Rizzuto's case, you either hate the Yankees or are too into stats.

I definately think Vizquel should make it & Robbie Alomar is not yet eligible.
Posted: Aug 17, 2007 3:34 pm
 
No way does Omar Vizquel
Posted: Aug 17, 2007 3:41 pm
 
No way does Omar Vizquel deserve to be in the Hall of Fame! I know the argument will be "well, Ozzie Smith is in the Hall of Fame" and they have comparable offensive statistics. But Ozzie Smith redefined the position. He is the greatest defensive shortstop in history. No one makes that claim about Vizquel. He played in an era where beside Cal Ripken, the shortstop wasn't an offensive threat whereas Vizquel plays in the era of Jeter, Rodriquez, Tejada, etc. He's nowhere near the league of the elites of his position. Ozzie was. Ozzie was a 15-time All-Star, runner up for the MVP in '87, a Silver Slugger Award winner, World Series champion, and a beloved figure in St.Louis and one of the most popular players in the entire sport. Has there ever been a year where you could argue Vizquel was the best shortstop in baseball? Vizquel is a good player but it's not the Hall of Very Good Players.
Posted: Aug 17, 2007 3:53 pm
 
No way does Omar Vizquel


well that's silly

superior stats to pee wee and scooter and rabbit and comparable to ozzie
and jeez a better fielding percentage than he (and all others)

57 hits post season
400 dbls
400 sbs
2600 hits
1300 runs


this is no hometown rooting, but because fielding has to be seen and not simply correlated, i have seen him play up close or on TV prob 300 games (at least: how does one figure that out?)

and i know what i know:

he was best middle def infielder i have ever seen (been watching since 68 or so) and i'd take his career over that fucking prima donna ripken who NO ONE ever slid hard into, who slept in diff hotels than team, and who had a barry like bonds relationship to teammates

oh, i almost forgot: for the last years of his stupid streak ripken could not bend down on ground balls to his LEFT, more less ones in the hole.

longevity streaks are for pussies. my mother has been driving for 62 years. i will not go back to Ohio until she is taken off the fucking road.
Posted: Aug 17, 2007 3:55 pm
 
one of the most popular players in the entire sport
nor is it a HOF of nice guys and comparing him to Ozzie IS the point!!
Posted: Aug 17, 2007 3:58 pm
 
where you could argue Vizquel was the best shortstop in baseba


well i have heard this argument so many times that it has become axiomatic but it is shot through with logical inconsistencies:

jimmy foxx was probabaly never the best IB any given time because there two idiots named gehrig and greenberg (baruch atah adonai) were playing down the road
Posted: Aug 17, 2007 4:08 pm
 
in the late 90's a rod and jeter were having their HOF years but omar was averaging 35 SBS, 105 runs scored, 385 OBP, and knocking down fielding percentages that would shame jeter

it's tejada, not omar, who does not belong in that above list

thanks to mickey, willie, and duke, richie ashburn was never even close to best CFer

he's a HOFer
Posted: Aug 17, 2007 4:12 pm | Edited by: Shawn Carpetbagger
 
Ozzie was on a whole different level than Vizquel when it comes to defense. Go to Baseball-Reference.com and check out Ozzie's Range Factor compared to Vizquel or his insane amount of Assists. Ozzie had a much greater range and took more chances which accounts for the lower fielding percentage. Ozzie gets a pass on his offense because he is the greatest defensive shortstop in history. Vizquel has been a consistently good player with longevity and has won a lot of Gold Gloves at a position in an era that doesn't put a premium on defense anymore. There are worse players in the Hall of Fame but I'm a proponent of the Hall being more discriminating.

Jimmie Foxx had back to back monster seasons in '32 and '33 where he was definitely the best 1B in baseball.

It's funny that the media never really talked about how a lot of his teammates didn't think much of Ripken or his brother Billy. See the infamous "fuckface" Billy Ripken baseball card for what his teammates really thought of the Ripkens.

What's your take on Rafael Palmiero? He's another guy who was consistently good but never the best at his position.
Posted: Aug 17, 2007 4:36 pm
 
foxx in 1932 had one of the greatest years of all time; stand corrected--lou was merely a monster that year, not a beast

if sutton--never the match of fergie, catfish, gaylord, carleton--made it then let raffy in

steroids asides, the 3000/500 club is very special. 1350 BBs,3 gold gloves, and 585 doubles, 4 all star games,and 100 SBS are really outstanding also.

he finished in the top ten of

RBI 8 times
mvps 3 times
BA 5 times
OPS 7 times

let the cheatin fucker in
Posted: Aug 18, 2007 2:31 am
 
hey shawn

in the diamond back game (8th inning) webb is at 40 consecutive scoreless
innings

wow!
Posted: Aug 18, 2007 2:34 am
 
See the infamous "fuckface" Billy Ripken baseball card for what his teammates really thought of the Ripkens.


http://www.homeruncards.com/rookiecards/bill-ripken-error-card.shtml
Posted: Aug 18, 2007 3:23 pm
 
Has there ever been a year where you could argue Vizquel was the best shortstop in baseball?

Of course there is! 1999 especially. Tell you what... I'll send you $5.00. 5 years after Vizquel hangs up his cleats, you call me when the Hall of Fame ceremonies are going down & tell me who's being enshrined. Vizquel can't compare with Ozzie Smith defensively? Stop it. Ozzie Smith may have invented fielding barehanded, but Vizquel did it so many times, they stopped putting it on highlight reels. Besides, Smith didn't have to win Gold Gloves with Jeter, Ripken, Garciaparra, or A-Rod as competition.
Posted: Aug 18, 2007 9:33 pm
 
I wouldn't be surprised if Vizquel gets elected to the Hall of Fame, he just doesn't deserve to be. And Ozzie Smith was on another level than Vizquel. I've been doing some research on Baseball-Reference.com and I'm about to totally baseball nerd out on you...

Ozzie Smith won 13 Gold Gloves to Vizquel's 11. The Gold Glove Award is probably the only award in baseball where the writers don't really bother to compare statistics. Guys win on reputation and perceived defensive prowess. Rafael Palmeiro winning the Gold Glove at 1B after only playing 40 games at that position is the most obvious example that comes to mind. That being said, Ozzie's 1990 & 1992 Gold Glove Awards are the only ones I don't think he really deserved. It could be argued that he did deserve the award in 1978 and 1979 so it all evens out in the end.

For most of the '80s Ozzie Smith was head and shoulders above the competition when you compare defensive stats. In the early to mid 80s, he didn't have any competition, he was that amazing. He led all National League shortstops in Assists, which is the best way to judge a shortstops range & prowess, eight times in his career, many times by a large margin. His career high is 621 assists in 1980 which is an insane number! He also led National League shortstops in Range Factor 6-times in his career, his career high 5.86 in 1982.

I think there were more worthy Gold Glove candidates than Vizquel in '94 - '97, '99, '00, '05, and '06. He probably deserved the '92 Gold Glove.

Vizquel led all American League shortstops in fielding percentage 3-times and National League shortstops 2-times in his career, three of those times doing so with a lower than league average Range Factor. He never led the league in Assists by a shortstop.

Ozzie Smith's career Range Factor is 5.03 compared to a 4.10 league Range Factor. Omar Vizquel's career Range Factor is 4.40 compared to a 4.11 league Range Factor. Ozzie Smith has 8375 career Assists in 2511 games compared to Omar Vizquel's 7264 career Assists in 2535 career games, a difference of over 1000 Assists in roughly the same amount of games! Vizquel has a career .984 fielding percentage compared to Smith's .978 career fielding percentage. I think Ozzie's 1000 Assists makes up for the 100 or so career error difference between Vizquel and then some!

My point is, Omar Vizquel is a very good defensive shortstop with above average range who was never undeniably THE best defensive shortstop in baseball while Ozzie Smith redefined the position and played the position at a much higher level than his nearest competition. If Ozzie is the gatekeeper for defensive wiz shortstops who weren't really Hall of Fame caliber hitters but deserve to be in the Hall, Vizquel doesn't stack up.

Did I really just post this on the Goner Records board?!? Anyway, for further referrence, check out
http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/smithoz01.shtml
http://www.baseball-reference.com/v/vizquom01.shtml
Posted: Aug 18, 2007 9:45 pm
 
Besides, Smith didn't have to win Gold Gloves with Jeter, Ripken, Garciaparra, or A-Rod as competition.
Smith had to compete against guys like Dave Concepcion, Larry Bowa, Garry Templeton, Shawon Dunston, Barry Larkin, Jay Bell, and Tony Fernandez all of which were highly regarded defensive shortstops.
Posted: Aug 18, 2007 9:48 pm
 

Did I really just post this on the Goner Records board?



sure but you might want to add fuck, fag, and bag of dick


i think some of the range factor is due to 9th NL hitter being lame pitcher beating the ball into the dirt and AL hitters being more powerful in 90's. i don't know of course.

i'd also take issue re Ozzie not being selected for offense: his runs/sbs/hits all stack up pre nomar; the fact that at a position not known for steroid use and only a decade later Omar matches well offensively.

jeez he's playing until his late 30;s not simply because he can grab.

also, range factor and assists are predicated on staffs and grass; i have to think astroturk induces more ground balls to left side (guys looking to sneak it through) than AL parks where bombers bomb away. also--omar was graceful, made second basemen better, turned DP's with a charismatic flair, and did not make errors.

the only thing you wrote that i would seriously disagree with is there were better ss's in ALL those years in the 1990's.

i was watching. there were not.

oh, and the yankees suck.
Posted: Aug 18, 2007 9:50 pm
 
oh and i know the tribe staff from 90's; not many sinker/sliders guys but i the yankees still blow
Posted: Aug 19, 2007 3:34 am
 
Shawn, your new last name is Windbagger 'cause that is a very long post that doesn't say much.

When Vizquel gets elected, I'll send you a box of Kleenex some envelopes, stationary, & stamps so you can send complaints to the BBWAA & the Hall of Fame.
Posted: Aug 19, 2007 5:07 am
 
You know, this thread has turned into a lot of talk about mvp's and hall and future hall of famers. Nobody has mentioned Rizzutos work on "Paradise by the Dashboard Light"
Posted: Aug 19, 2007 2:05 pm
 
Nobody has mentioned Rizzutos work on "Paradise by the Dashboard Light"

Funny that you mentioned that. I never knew who that was until he passed & they were playing that on ESPN the other day.
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