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Posted: Jul 11, 2007 6:56 pm
 
HAS ANYONE SEEN IT?
IS IT WORTH THE MONEY?
Posted: Jul 11, 2007 7:12 pm
 
Save the time and money and rent it? I havent seen it but I can bet I could probably get a free lecture from my mama for free!
Posted: Jul 11, 2007 9:18 pm
 
It's good, but I don't really think it shows a whole lot that people don't already know. If you don't know that health insurance companies are evil entities that are willing to fuck people over and let them die just so they can make a profit, you are probably rich and wouldn't bother seeing it anyway.
Posted: Jul 11, 2007 9:35 pm
 
I saw it, but I got in free, so I can't speak to how "worth it" it was.

Thought it was good. Better than F/911, in that it's a pretty unassailable thesis, mainly asking: "Why does every other industrialized country in the world have a better health care system than we do, when we spend the most money?" Don't see how anybody could argue with the question, but most American's will just say "Well, it's really her fault, she should have taken her baby to the right hospital," and nothing will change because to do so might entail raising everybody's taxes slightly.

I liked how he didn't even focus on the uninsured, and talked about how all the people WITH insurance get shafted, which in theory might make it more accessible to more Americans if it wasn't a Michael Moore movie. Sure, I have my petty gripes (the whole Cuban thing - I doubt that the average Cuban gets a team of doctors to look at 'em. Potemkin village, anyone?) but overall it will leave you very well exasperated with the US and wanting to move to another country (like I wasn't already).

The silence is deafening. When his last movie came out you couldn't escape hearing about it, this one seems to be getting nary a peep of media coverage in comparison. When it does get discussed, people just bag on Moore. I'm getting pretty tired of everybody attacking Moore, saying he's a fat hypocrite, etc. I don't care, so what if he is a fat hypocritical bastard. He's the only one even discussing this issue AT ALL in the media.

Having seen one rock n' roll dude I know get cancer in a country with nationalized health care, and another dude I know get leukemia here in the US and comparing and contrasting, well, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the shit here ain't right. Maybe this will help, but I doubt it.

You'll get a couple laughs out of it, at least *sigh*
Posted: Jul 11, 2007 10:27 pm
 
Moore ignores the fact that 85% of hospital beds in the U.S. are in nonprofit hospitals, and almost half of us with private plans get our insurance from nonprofit providers.


The U.S. actually rates #2 in wait times for non-emergency treatment. Also, what Moore doesn't mention is that the U.S. rates highest in patient satisfaction.

The quality of a health care system has very little to do with the average life expectancy of an entire population - however, it has a lot to do with the the health outcomes of those who are already sick - and on that score, the U.S. does better than Canada. 25% of those diagnosed with breast cancer in the U.S. die from it - while the mortality ratio in Canada is 28%. Similarly, the U.S. prostate cancer mortality ratio is 19% while 25% of those diagnosed with prostate cancer in Canada die from it.

before you think about moving to canada, check out dead meat
http://www.onthefencefilms.com/video/deadmeat/deadmeat.html
Posted: Jul 11, 2007 10:49 pm
 
While there is more to the issue than what Moore can fit into a 2 hour film, linking to websites that think the American Spectator is a credible source and whose founder gets invited to speak by the Cato institute doesn't do much for your cred.
Posted: Jul 11, 2007 10:55 pm
 
If youre into FORCING violence on people to make them pay for other peoples health care, then yeah, youll love it!
Posted: Jul 11, 2007 10:58 pm
 
And as a documentary, its horrible. Its like a segment on 60 Minutes. Its a propaganda piece, NOT a documentary.
Posted: Jul 11, 2007 11:02 pm
 
If people are actually under the assumption that no one in the media is addressing this issue then I dont what type of media you pay attention to. While its true that the left tends to address this issue more often then not, healthcare has been a topic discussed more widely by people than you would actually believe. It's not some elitist topic that is limited to new school yuppie artfags to discuss while sipping on their soy lattes.
The real problem is that people in this country are living too fucking long!
Im not saying that the current system is one that works. Im also not saying that socialized healthcare is the answer either.
But one thing I am sure of is that extreme diatribe from either side will never create "mainstream" buzz.
Especially from a dude like Michael Moore. By the way, I have seen pretty much all of his documentaries and read "Dude Where's My country?" I even went to see him speak once while he was in the process of making this movie.
I respect him, but hes got an agenda- just like every fucking body else!
Posted: Jul 11, 2007 11:03 pm
 
If youre into FORCING violence on people to make them pay for other peoples health care, then yeah, youll love it!

?
Posted: Jul 11, 2007 11:40 pm
 
Moore ignores the fact that 85% of hospital beds in the U.S. are in nonprofit hospitals

Anyone who has ever worked in a "nonprofit hospital" (other than The Med or a similar poorly administrated hospital) will tell you what a complete oxymoron this is. Check out administrative costs for health care companies and insurance companies and you will see why things cost way too much and why hospitals can still somehow be "nonprofits", which basically is a business structure, not an indicator of being "for poor people".

Doctors salaries in this country are also much higher than in other countries...it is all more complex than one movie can describe, but Moore isn't all wrong or all right.
Posted: Jul 12, 2007 12:01 am
 
i caught michael moore on cnn talking about SICKO on monday. actually, he didnt say one thing about the movie. he just...complained.

some more.
Posted: Jul 12, 2007 12:18 am
 
Doctors salaries in this country are also much higher than in other countries...it is all more complex than one movie can describe, but Moore isn't all wrong or all right.

No, but he's a whole lot more right than the opposition. Say what you will about the guy, but the left needed its own attack dog for a long time. I'm glad he's around.
Posted: Jul 12, 2007 12:23 am
 
But one thing I am sure of is that extreme diatribe from either side will never create "mainstream" buzz.

In what way is suggesting that the U.S. adapt a model used by most industrialized countries "extreme diatribe?" It's just the absurd American pathological fear of anything that might be labeled "socialism." No, I agree with Moore on this one. Insurance companies need to be removed from the process. Period.
Posted: Jul 12, 2007 12:54 am | Edited by: the rape ape
 
yeah like in canaduh where insurance is illegal for people so your dog can get surgery it needs right away but people die on waiting lists for nessecary surgery.

A man tells about his mother waiting two years for life-saving cancer surgery — and then twice having her surgical appointments canceled. She was still waiting when she died.

A man in critical need of neck surgery plays a voicemail message from a doctor he'd contacted: "As of today," she says, "it's a two-year wait-list to see me for an initial consultation."


What's really amazing is that even the intended beneficiaries of Moore's propagandizing don't support his claims. The Supreme Court of Canada declared in June 2005 that the government health care monopoly in Quebec is a violation of basic human rights

"It's not hard to do better than the U.S.," Moore cautioned. "The Canadian system, if you look on that list of the World Health Organization, is not that far above us."

25% of those diagnosed with breast cancer in the U.S. die from it - while the mortality ratio in Canada is 28%. Similarly, the U.S. prostate cancer mortality ratio is 19% while 25% of those diagnosed with prostate cancer in Canada die from it.

Canada's Fraser Institute, in its' report Waiting Your Turn, estimates that over 770,000 Canadians are currently on waiting lists.

or how about france, which moore says is a medical paradise
France in 2003, 15,000 mostly elderly hospital patients died in an August heat wave--because hospitals lack air conditioning and doctors were on vacation. The French parliament blamed the health care system. That's five times 9/11's toll, all of it preventable, all of it unlamented by Moore.

The U.S. actually rates #2 in wait times for non-emergency treatment. Also, what Moore doesn't mention is that the U.S. rates highest in patient satisfaction.
Posted: Jul 12, 2007 12:58 am | Edited by: the rape ape
 
http://www.timelymedical.ca/
companies like this make a fortune off canadians sick of waiting for nessecary health care who are happy to come to the USA and pay for treatment
Seeking damages as well as reimbursement for medical, travel and rehabilitation costs, the decision to launch a lawsuit comes after the Provincial government refused to pay the costs for private magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) and subsequent surgery to remove a cancerous tumour in Mr. McCreith's brain at a Buffalo hospital on March 6, 2006. The Ontario Health Insurance Plan informed Mr. McCreith that since he didn't get pre-approval for his out-of-country procedure, they would not reimburse him for the services he received. The "catch 22 "is that the pre-approval process routinely takes significantly longer than the four and half weeks between Mr. McCreith's initial MRI and his life saving surgery.



McCreith, a retired small business owner, is seeking a larger role for private health care in Canada: "I had hoped that the Government would carefully consider my case. I didn't feel I had an option to wait for my medical treatment, given the possibility the tumour was malignant, and had to pay out of pocket to have my brain surgery. The health system has let me down and I don't want to see other individuals go through the pain and anguish I have suffered," said McCreith.



Timely Medical Alternatives, which will lead fundraising efforts for the court challenge, said that Canadians are still not receiving timely health care despite record levels of health spending and numerous commitments made by provincial and federal governments.



Richard Baker, President of Timely Medical Alternatives, said: "This case is not about creating a second tier of health care. Instead, it's about the provincial government's refusal to provide timely medical treatment for Mr. McCreith, as well as the restrictions on private insurance. In Mr. McCreith's case, it really was a life or death situation."



In the opinion of Dr. Gary Magee, Mr. McCreith's family physician of 35 years, Mr. McCreith could not afford to wait to receive treatment: "Brain surgery needed to be expedited. Lindsay might not have made it if he had to wait the likely eight months it would have taken him to have a MRI, see a specialist and have surgery."
Posted: Jul 12, 2007 1:01 am
 
In Manitoba as in other provinces, the hospitals and the surgeons are not able to offer hip and knee replacements to all the patients who need them. As a result, some patients wait years and years in great pain, and more or less immobilized by arthritis. Once the pain gets bad enough, some are willing to pay the $20,000 or $25,000 US that the procedure may cost at a U.S. hospital. These people become clients of Timely Medical Alternatives and the other firms in the same line of work that have sprung up because of the innefficiency of Canada's health services.
Posted: Jul 12, 2007 1:07 am
 
In Manitoba as in other provinces, the hospitals and the surgeons are not able to offer hip and knee replacements to all the patients who need them.

maybe they should dress up like a tree and go to a tree surgeon?
Posted: Jul 12, 2007 1:15 am
 
In what way is suggesting that the U.S. adapt a model used by most industrialized countries "extreme diatribe?" It's just the absurd American pathological fear of anything that might be labeled "socialism." No, I agree with Moore on this one. Insurance companies need to be removed from the process. Period.

I agree with Moore more than disagree with him, though his jokey didacticism gets tiresome...or maybe his sycophants do, I don't know. Again, I am more on his side than reactionaries on either side.
Posted: Jul 12, 2007 3:29 am
 

maybe they should dress up like a tree and go to a tree surgeon?

they could dress up like a dog and go to a dog surgeon, pet insurance is legal and pets can get healthcare easier than people in canada, where health insurance for people is illegal.
Posted: Jul 12, 2007 6:26 am
 
It's just the absurd American pathological fear of anything that might be labeled "socialism."

Why is it absurd for an American not to be into in socialism? We are not a socialist country! Our ideals are not based on socialism! You may have heard of a little thing called The Constitution . . .
If we had socialized health care, the costs would come from our taxed income. And if we didnt agree to pay it, we would be put in jail. That is violence being imposed upon us. I should be able to choose to not pay for other people's illnesses. If I overdosed on heroin and had to stay in the hospital, would you want to pay for that?
Furthermore, the government has NO authority to impose a direct income tax on private wage earners (i.e. you and me) anyway! Check the 16th Amendment. People have been fighting this anomoly for years and losing miserably.
Watch Aaron Russo's (dude produced Arrested Development, remember that lil charmer?) documentary "From Freedom to Fascism." Speaking of propaganda documentaries, Alex Jones is the one doing the next level shit. Moore is nowhere close to being courageous or relevant when he's compared to Jones. In fact, I cant believe no one has mentioned Alex Jones yet. Holla!
Posted: Jul 12, 2007 6:37 am
 
Furthermore, the government has NO authority to impose a direct income tax on private wage earners (i.e. you and me) anyway! Check the 16th Amendment. People have been fighting this anomoly for years and losing miserably.

Amendment XVI

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

um... is this what you meant?
Posted: Jul 12, 2007 7:13 am
 
Waiting in line for treatment is better than no treatment at all, right?

I do believe it's sad that in the richest country in the world a large portion of it's population are too poor to get sick.
Posted: Jul 12, 2007 7:16 am
 
Well we may not be a socialist country, but we are not a democracy either. We live in a democratic republic. Our economic system is capitalism, but that is not inherent to our system of government, which ideally is primaily focused on securing the rights of the individual.
Granted socialized medicine is something that should not just be thrust upon us by the whims of a few people, but if it was decided on a mass scale that socialize medicine was something that we as a people would want, then it should be so and would not be something necisarily unamerican
Posted: Jul 12, 2007 7:30 am
 
and in the socialized countries with universal healthcare, the rich people have the option of paying extra money to private practice physicians to get the level of attention rich people are accustomed to getting, including appointments at whim on demand.

i think it is pathetic that in the richest country in the world we would even have to have this discussion (about access to health care)
Posted: Jul 12, 2007 1:55 pm
 
If we had socialized health care, the costs would come from our taxed income.

"Socialized Medicine" is an anachronistic Red Scare term thanks to the organized AMA of long ago. Our taxes pay for a lot worse than some level of health care for all and we don't all agree about every last thing; that is why we supposedly work on a Democratic system of representation.

I have a feeling that even if we had some system of taxpayer health care in this county, heroin OD's would still get the shaft. There would always be a limit on what was covered (as there has to be) and what happens with indigent OD's now, would continue to happen...ER at whatever hospital agrees to take them, a gurney in the hallway and then discharge. And a bill that never gets paid.
Posted: Jul 12, 2007 2:19 pm
 
If I overdosed on heroin and had to stay in the hospital, would you want to pay for that?

yes, because you are a human just like me and humans are imperfect.

we live in a democracy (republic, whatever) and have i have to help pay for all kinds of things i disagree with: war, road building in the national forests, subsidies to corporate farms, etc. if you dont want to pay for things you disagree with you'll have to buy an island to live on. or vote for ron paul i guess.

I should be able to choose to not pay for other people's
illnesses.
or skateparks, highways, museums, community centers, fireworks displays, public art, national parks, et al.

if you got choose where yer taxes went we would live in a ragged out country that was falling apart with no infrastructure or public realm. thatd be awesome!
Posted: Jul 12, 2007 6:00 pm
 
While I agree that at as a civilized and evolved society we should take care of each other, I cant imagine having our federal government be in charge of my healthcare. Anyone been to the DMV lately?
ITs funny all you have to do is look at the incompetence of our curennt so called "elected" leaders and realise how stupid and very tragic it would be for this country to move to a socialized system of healthcare.
I dont have health insurance, and I do have some pretty expensive medical problems.
So the question becomes what is the solution?
Posted: Jul 12, 2007 6:44 pm
 
Argument by anecdote is meaningless, anybody can produce a bunch of stories illustrating their "side" that wouldn't prove anything. At least mine would involve people I actually know rather than pulling them off some right wing website, but whatever...

We already pay for the care of those without health insurance. Those people without don't go to the doctor until they end up in the emergency room, when "fixing" them is waaay more expensive. If they can't pay then, those costs are just passed along to everyone else. But along with those costs go the obscene profits made by the health care industry. This adds up to far more in total than we would pay in taxes to support a nationalized system.

A national health care system would do more as far as preventive care, which is much less expensive. But, to realize this would require focusing on the long-term rather than the short term, and looking at the greater good, which American's seem incapable of doing.

If it's a free market thing, why is Europe, which has expensive "socialist" health care, kicking our ass economically while the US economy stagnates? The Euro keeps rising over the dollar.

if you got choose where yer taxes went we would live in a ragged out country that was falling apart with no infrastructure or public realm. thatd be awesome!

This country is already falling apart, the infrastructure is already falling apart, and we have no public realm already. We already live in a ragged ass country from all my tax dollars going to pay for a bloated military, without me having any choice in the matter. Seriously, the US is becoming more like Brazil than it is like any of the countries of Western Europe.
Posted: Jul 12, 2007 7:02 pm
 
My income tax does not pay for skateparks, highways, museums, community centers, fireworks displays, public art, national parks, et al.
These mostly come from property taxes and gas taxes, which are based on your lifestyle, or how you choose to live.
Also, an amendment (like the 16th) does not become part of the Constitution until it is ratified by three quarters of the state legislatures. The 16th was never legally ratified back in 1913. There's all kinds of interesting, squirly info about this controversy. Check out:
http://www.thelawthatneverwas.com/new/home.asp
http://www.freedomtofascism.com/
You can watch Freedom to Fascism online for free.
Posted: Jul 12, 2007 10:30 pm
 
My income tax does not pay for skateparks, highways, museums, community centers, fireworks displays, public art, national parks, et al.

yes it does. every city/state gets federal funds.
Posted: Jul 12, 2007 10:47 pm
 
if you got choose where yer taxes went we would live in a ragged out country that was falling apart with no infrastructure or public realm. thatd be awesome!

supposedly, income tax does not pay our financial wants, but goes to our financial obligations as a government- which doesnt include skateparks or convenient highways.

obviously, it doesnt entirely work out that way.
Posted: Jul 12, 2007 11:19 pm
 
I cant imagine having our federal government be in charge of my healthcare. Anyone been to the DMV lately?

Believe it or not, my last two visits to the DMV were fast and efficient (I used the telephone reservation system) and the people were quite courteous.

I think part of the problem is the way government has been successfully demonized by the right-wing press over the last couple of decades. We seem to believe that government is somehow inherently inefficient and corrupt while private industry isn't. Looking at the last decade or so of corporate scandals should put that notion to rest.

The free market works great for some things, not so well for others. Seems like common sense to me.
Posted: Jul 13, 2007 12:35 am
 
yeah like in canaduh where insurance is illegal for people

what the fuck are you talking about?
Posted: Jul 13, 2007 1:30 am
 
Believe it or not, my last two visits to the DMV were fast and efficient (I used the telephone reservation system) and the people were quite courteous.

Ditto. Even in Flaw-ri-duh.

And yep, Federal income tax goes allllllll kindsa places. Block grants to states for basically you name it. Check it out.
Posted: Jul 13, 2007 1:48 am
 
As explained in a 2003 report, the Canadian health care system is "unique in the world in that it bans coverage of . . . [physician and hospital] core services by private insurance companies, allowing supplemental insurance only for perquisites such as private hospital rooms. This ban constrains the emergence of a parallel private medical or hospital sector and puts pressure on the provinces to meet the expectations of middle-class Canadians."
Detsky AS, Naylor CD. Canada's health care system -- reform delayed. N Engl J Med 2003;349:804-810.
Posted: Jul 13, 2007 2:03 am | Edited by: saispas
 
It is my understanding that most Americans entertaining the notion are looking far away from the Canadian system and to the German model which allows for private insurance to supplement.

My public health prof said once that the big and meaningful diff here is that the USA is simply the only county of its size and wealth in the entire free world that attaches all health care insurance (if you aren't at the federal poverty limits for Medicaid) to be attached 100% to employment, meaning, you lose your job for whatever reason, even a reason beyond your control, you have no right to any access to health insurance. Let's not kid ourselves here...that is analagous to not having access to much health care PERIOD.

That is fucked up. I am with TK on this...it stuns me that human beings, moreover ,human beings that are not coming from a place of wealth and privilege, can be so callous to not see that a change could be made/considered.
Posted: Jul 13, 2007 2:03 am
 
Comparing the running of the DMV to running of a hospital is ludicrous. Hospitals would still be run by Doctors and Nurses. It's not like we would be operated on by random government employees.
Posted: Jul 13, 2007 2:09 am
 
"The evidence in this case shows that delays in the public health-care system are widespread, and that, in some serious cases, patients die as a result of waiting lists for public health care," Chief Justice Beverley McLachlin wrote.

"The evidence also demonstrates that the prohibition against private health insurance and its consequence of denying people vital health care result in physical and psychological suffering . . . .

The Canada Health Act explicitly forbids any Canadian from
buying from the private sector a medical service that is already covered under the public
health system. Private insurance plans are not allowed to cover "core services" and may only
cover "non-core services." As a result, the role of private medical insurance in Canada is
limited to supplemental care.

Ontario's Health Insurance Act goes even further in banning private insurance. It makes private insurance for treatment that is covered by the provincial medical insurance plan void, and also makes it an offence to enter into such a policy.
Posted: Jul 13, 2007 2:14 am | Edited by: saispas
 
Whatever they do in Canada right now is of no immediate concern to me when trying to entertain intellectually a different way to access affordable health care in the good ol USA. Realistically, private insurance would have to be incorporated into any improved system we try....unless we should just keep it status quo since it is working so well.

(Let's hear from the peanut gallery when they are 55, the Medicare system is bust and they can barely move off the couch from some slipped disc issue.)
Posted: Jul 13, 2007 2:25 am
 
Hospitals would still be run by Doctors and Nurses. It's not like we would be operated on by random government employees.

hospitals are corporations and are run as businesses. the person in charge of operating the business may or may not have a medical degree.

granted, those suits won't perform operations, deliver babies, etc but they do have a serious say-so in how the doctors do and just how much care a patient gets. there really is a price tag on your head here
Posted: Jul 13, 2007 2:31 am | Edited by: saispas
 
the person in charge of operating the business may or may not have a medical degree.

Ain't that the truth. More than likely they got an MBA with a specialization in health admin. There's gold in them thar hills! You would not believe how many doctors are averse to the status quo...so many do so much pro bono or for 50% or more reduction in physicians fees. The hospital charges are the ones you end up getting the screw for.
Posted: Jul 13, 2007 2:33 am
 

hospitals are corporations and are run as businesses. the person in charge of operating the business may or may not have a medical degree.



Well granted, but I was just sayig when people say "just look at the DMV" it is usally used to bring up ideas of a bunch of slack-jawed yokels who hate their job and really could not give a shit about helping you. The hospitals and the people who run them are not really what are at issue when talking about health coverage, even though many insurance people work at hospitals. The main thing that needs to be changed is how our medical coverage is paid for, and if a decent government run social health care system was to be in place, it should not change the way the actual hospital is run too drastically.
Posted: Jul 13, 2007 2:35 am
 
The hospital charges are the ones you end up getting the screw for.

right... if you think the air force pays too much for toilets and hammers.... take a serious look at the itemized bill you get after an operation. you're paying something like $1 PER bandage, $2 PER aspirin... you pay for each little sponge they use... they count all that shit before, during and after the operation -- on the one hand, they'll know if they left a clamp in you but on the other hand... its just bean counting. that's only the tip of the iceberg.
Posted: Jul 13, 2007 2:35 am
 
the govt wont run your hospital? think again. look at michael moores utopian france where the health care is so great that in 2003, 15,000 mostly elderly hospital patients died in an August heat wave--because hospitals lack air conditioning and doctors were on vacation.

Many blamed Health Minister Jean-François Mattei for failing to return from his vacation when the heat wave became serious, and his aides for blocking emergency measures in public hospitals (such as the recalling of physicians). A particularly vocal critic was Dr Patrick Pelloux, head of the union of emergency physicians, who blamed the Raffarin administration for ignoring warnings from health and emergency professionals and trying to minimize the crisis.

yeah government administrators failed to implement emergency procedures even though physicians were warning of crisis.

15,000 dead hospital patients where m moore says health care is the finest.
Posted: Jul 13, 2007 2:46 am
 
15,000 dead hospital patients where m moore says health care is the finest.


The movie had flaws in the way that it portrayed other countries as being utopian. Sure Moore didn't show cases where other countries medical care goes south sometimes. Canada may have a long wait list for non-essential surgery. Yeah it's kind of fucked up that you can't get additional insurance if you want to. None of this changes the fact that the situation and our country is truly awful and we should be looking to start a new way to take care of people with medical needs.
Politicians have done such a great job of putting fear into people, primarily fear of change. I'm always amazed when I meet people that otherwise seem pretty down and cool and open-minded, but go on to basically echo the things that our leaders make us fear, primarily when it comes to Healthcare and Immigration.
Posted: Jul 13, 2007 2:50 am
 
another "flaw" is all the lies, like the 20 minute segment of their boat trip to cuba which was really just them floating off the miami coast and they took a chartered plane to cuba which was really their plan all along, not the gimo stunt they pulled. the way he parroted off their official statistics made me sick, sure he doesnt trust the us govt corporations etc but dictators? he'll take them on their word.
Posted: Jul 13, 2007 2:55 am
 
look at michael moores utopian france where the health care is so great

Michael Moore's view is not the sine qua non, simply the loudest, on this issue. Can you wrap your head around that? That is the discussion I'd love to have...maybe it won't work, but why not consider the options as IT IS NOT WORKING AS IT IS? Why is it all this "Oooga booga! Me scared tha big old bad guvment!" stuff?
Posted: Jul 13, 2007 3:34 am
 
15,000 mostly elderly hospital patients died in an August heat wave--because hospitals lack air conditioning and doctors were on vacation.

Heat waves kill old people in the US, too. Many buildings in France lack air conditioning, not just hospitals, because it doesn't get that hot there most of the time. You can't just say that nationalized health care killed 15,000 blue hairs.
Posted: Jul 13, 2007 3:44 am
 
doctors were on vacation

So they just left the hospital doors open and said, "Sacre bleu! We must go en vacances, you pigs, take care of your miserable selves!" The argument is reeking; the garbagemen must be on vacation. Seriously.
Posted: Jul 13, 2007 4:25 am
 
doctors were on vacation

i'd see that sorta crap everyday at the nursing home my mom used to live at. all the aides and nurses would take their break at the same time, so for an hour (15, 30, 15) every shift, there'd be NOBODY at all working. it was fucking nuts. i once came in to find one of those dipshits had put my mom on the toilet and then left for lunch. this stupid fucking bitch had planned on leaving my mom on the toilet for 30 minutes!!! needless to say, that didn't last long. sheesh, and my mom was living on the 'costs a fucking mint' wing, not the wing where they throw all the people with no money. sheesh, i cringe to think what that side must be like...
Posted: Jul 13, 2007 4:27 am
 
looks like i need to see this
Posted: Jul 13, 2007 4:55 am
 
15000 dead, thats like a whole bunch of 9/11s folks...
french healthcare is FUCKED.
god bless W and the good ole USofA
Posted: Jul 13, 2007 5:10 am
 
there were 485 deaths in chicago during the july 1995 heatwave, and
739 EXCESS deaths due to heat during that time
http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/443213in.html

that's just one city in the USA

same heat wave, milwaukee = 197 heat related deaths...

deaths from heat waves are an under reported weather disaster since it seems collateral rather than direct (as in hurricanes, floods, etc)

it can happen anywhere! USA, france, afghanistan...
Posted: Jul 13, 2007 5:30 am
 
someone should print this thread out and send it to Congress, since y'all are gonna figure this problem out here
Posted: Jul 13, 2007 5:46 am | Edited by: the rape ape
 
that's just one city in the USA
sure, thats like ONE 9/11
but the french government was responsible for a healthcare diaster that equals MORE THAN FIVE 9/11s!!!
suck on that mikey moore lovers
the doctors were warning the government that there was a crisis and the people on vacation needed to come back, but the government overseers chose to let the people DIE.
Posted: Jul 13, 2007 6:17 am
 
if you believe like malthus did, then those people should be dead anyway?

in today's paper (santa barbara news press... though its an AP wire story), i read that heat wave related deaths are WAY under reported. everywhere.
Posted: Jul 13, 2007 6:38 am
 
FERN:

PROPERTY TAXES pay for schools, libraries, mental health programs, roads, drug programs, police and firefighters, etc. INCOME TAX does NOT. Telling me that "every city/state gets federal funds" is an arbitrary statement that has nothing to do with the property v. income tax argument.
You are clearly wrong and no absolutely nothing about where your taxes go. Check your sources and think twice about correcting me on this issue. Telling me to go buy a desert island to live on shows that you are ignorant and reactionary. I GUARANTEE that I love this country more than you do. In fact, you've already proven it. I have nothing against you, but if you argue my posts, you will NOT win the argument. Trust me.
Posted: Jul 13, 2007 6:39 am
 
malthusian in scope?
Feline panleucopenia virus (FPLV) was introduced in 1977 on Marion Island (in the southern Indian Ocean) with the aim of eradicating the cat population and provoked a huge decrease in the host population within six years. The virus can be transmitted either directly through contacts between infected and healthy cats or indirectly between a healthy cat and the contaminated environment: a specific feature of the virus is its high rate of survival outside the host.
Posted: Jul 13, 2007 6:40 am
 
GEORGE W BUSH WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR 9/11 AND AIDS!!!
Posted: Jul 13, 2007 6:41 am
 
cancer was invented by kaiser
Posted: Jul 13, 2007 7:12 am
 
PROPERTY TAXES pay for schools,

and about 70% of the people in my neck of the woods send their kids to private schools, boarding schools or they home school them. you should hear them go on and on and on about paying for the public schools....
Posted: Jul 13, 2007 1:56 pm
 
the doctors were warning the government that there was a crisis and the people on vacation needed to come back, but the government overseers chose to let the people DIE.

I thought the doctors were the ones on vacation. Anyway, you aren't budging with this one obviously.
Posted: Jul 13, 2007 2:01 pm
 

PROPERTY TAXES pay for schools, libraries, mental health programs, roads, drug programs, police and firefighters, etc.


While this is true, Brendan, there are parts of our income tax that the feds dole out in block grants for all sorts of supplemental education/school programs, mental health and social services programs....likely other things as well if you look hard enough. Sure Reagan and Bush I did their best to minimize these funds/decimate the original LBJ plans and make it very difficult to get the funds. I do know about these funds because I have worked on grant applications to the feds to get them or I happen to use the resources created by these funds to help some of the clients I have or have had in the past. I don't wanna argue about who loves the USA more...just some facts that are still out there.
Posted: Jul 13, 2007 2:52 pm
 
cancer was invented by kaiser

I thought he invented those rolls....mmmmm
Posted: Jul 13, 2007 3:52 pm | Edited by: Fern
 
PROPERTY TAXES pay for schools, libraries, mental health programs, roads, drug programs, police and firefighters, etc. INCOME TAX does NOT.

i'm a high school history teacher; i know where the money for mcs comes from. and saispas said what i was gonna say anyway. and i guess i should be done b/c you said so.

You are clearly wrong and no absolutely nothing about where your taxes go. Check your sources and think twice about correcting me on this issue. Telling me to go buy a desert island to live on shows that you are ignorant and reactionary. I GUARANTEE that I love this country more than you do. In fact, you've already proven it. I have nothing against you, but if you argue my posts, you will NOT win the argument. Trust me.

i'll try to check my sources anyway.
[url=http://nces.ed.gov/programs/quarterly/Vol_2/2_4/c_section1.asp]fe deral

funding for mental health

history of fed funding for roads/highways

history of fed drug programs

fed funding for bike trails

all of these are us govt websites. i could go on but it seems like you already made up your mind that i'm woefully ignorant so i'll stop.

i also dont really want to argue about love of country but jeez how did you come up with that? it's just webshit, man.
Posted: Jul 13, 2007 5:33 pm
 
I GUARANTEE that I love this country more than you do.
no you don't.
Posted: Jul 13, 2007 5:35 pm | Edited by: Ria
 
I gotta an idea, lets all stab ourselves in the arm and time how long it takes to get fixed up in our home cities. Then while we are there we can discuss the issues with the medical staff and let them know that we were having an intense debate about it on a messagebaord!
Thatll be an interesting excercise!
Posted: Jul 13, 2007 6:06 pm | Edited by: Crystal Lake
 
this is a minor gripe and doesn't relate to the movie or the US system, but it's irritating to keep seeing the same misinfo posted in this thread re: private insurance in Canada.

wait times for certain procedures are ridiculous. that is a change that needs to start with staffing, wage increases (otherwise it's just a nasty brain drain to the US for our doctors and nurses, where they can make a lot more money), and an overhaul of administration. it's definitely not perfect, or even that great, but at least I know that if I get cancer, have a heart attack, or cut my arm off with a lawnmower, I can just go down to the hospital and get what I need. Someone should dig up some stats on how many americans die because they can't afford treatment and are too dumb to just go into debt over it (and no, I am not trying to insinuate that americans are dumb! there are stupid people like that everywhere).

Also, at least in BC, one will never have to pay more than 5% of her annual income towards prescription drugs per year, meaning that patients whose drugs cost them thousands per month don't have to sell their homes and eat dog food to pay for them.

I also get extended private health insurance through work, which covers my prescriptions, dental and eye care, along with "special" things like visits to the nutritionist, physio, massage therapy, etc., as well as covers me 100% anytime I travel. Supplemental health coverage is not illegal, in fact it is encouraged.

I don't really care to debate with people who pull quotes out of advertisements for US private health facilities in order to support their P.O.V.; I saw first hand the kind of expedited treatment my broke mum got at NO COST to her and in a thorough and very timely manner, for a serious disease that could have killed her, or at least required an organ transplant, in a short time frame. They saved her life just fine, and now she and my 11 year old brother still have a house and a car and food on the table, and I don't have to take care of a little kid because he has nobody else.

I'll probably rent Sicko when it's on DVD. I'm glad to hear that Michael Moore hasn't done with this one what he did with Bowling for Columbine; that is, present Canada like some kind of utopia where people don't lock their doors. His commentary is often misleading, if not outright factually incorrect. And he's fat!!!

Staff at an Ontario clinic complain about the tactics used in filming:
http://www.canada.com/windsorstar/news/story.html?id=3238be59-2245-427 9-9b3c-284ae4ddaa72&k=54872

busting in and filming people waiting to see a doctor without their permission is dirty pool.
Posted: Jul 13, 2007 6:27 pm
 
god bless W and the good ole USofA

i knew you had a fuckin' problem. i love my country and proud to tell anybody, including French people. but leave your deity out of it, loser.

it would seem Michael Moore is successful at getting just a few people thinking about it. He's a great entertainer, maybe he should do WWF as well as "politics"
Posted: Jul 13, 2007 10:15 pm
 
calling people losers isnt very christian of you.
you'll be in my prayers tonight.

god bless.
Posted: Jul 14, 2007 12:12 am
 
Pray I don't show up on your porch honkee with Michael Moore and have him sit on you, flag burner. then you'd have to go to Cuba for treatment too.

amen.

USA! USA! USA!
Posted: Jul 14, 2007 2:47 am
 
Americans are lazy. We all do this to ourselves. Michael Moore is no more or less honest that the next spindoctor or politician. I haven't seen this one, but the superficial manipulation in Roger and Me, and Bowling for Columbine. If I had a company to run I wouldn't talk to him either, nor even be nice to him.

If he were truly America's conscious he would lose weight for all of us, so we all won't bear his medical costs for being a lardass.
Posted: Jul 14, 2007 4:26 pm
 
Michael Moore is obviously an easy scapegoat for people who would choose to believe there is not a problem with the way the US runs and allows others to run a healthcare system, unfortunately. In that way, he pisses me off.
Posted: Jul 14, 2007 4:54 pm
 
If he were truly America's conscious he would lose weight for all of us, so we all won't bear his medical costs for being a lardass.


gawd, you're not even paying attention

it's only if we had socialized medicine that we would have to pay for his health care

lucky for us the system would, as it is now, make him pay for it himself after his insurance company denied his claim
Posted: Jul 15, 2007 5:47 am
 
If he were truly America's conscious he would lose weight for all of us, so we all won't bear his medical costs for being a lardass
And yes it, should be conscience.
Who pays for Medicare and Medicaid and all of the write offs and bad debt foregiveness at hospitals for indigents? Which are an integral part of the overall insurance company rate gerrymandering and the artificial health care rates, etc, etc, etc. It'a all interreled, Beef. We all pay for one another in one fashion or another. And he is a lardass.
It's broken, fine, wouldn't argue that point. Michael Moore is a snake oil salesman and a huckster. I don't care what he has to say, after hearing it a few other places. We are a broken culture, that is the root of the problem, spoiled by our own excesses and wealth. People are poor culturally and relatively far before they are starving on the street.
Posted: Jul 15, 2007 2:35 pm
 
As a supersized consumer of recreational drugs and salt, I cannot conscionably ask Joe Gafford, who works at the Ford glass plant, to pick up my health tab as part of his meagre wages.
Posted: Jul 15, 2007 6:36 pm
 
Ok, I finally understand!

We all agree that our health care system has some problems, BUT-

we can't talk about them because Michael Moore talked about it. After all, he's fat! And a douchebag! So, yeah, there's problems, but we just have to ignore them because Michael happened to mention it. After all, if we bring it up after he did everybody will just assume that we LOVE him and agree wholesale with everything he says! I mean, fuck that, he's a douchebag, right? So, I guess we just can't talk about it. At all. Ever again.

And, we can't bring up how they do it in other countries, either, because they have problems, too. I mean, sure, OUR health care system is FUCKED, but my god, other countries also have health care problems. So, we can't bring up how other countries do it, because after all, it's not perfect over there, ya know...

So, I guess the only solution is to do nothing, and to not even discuss it, until somebody who everybody likes and is totally unimpeachable in every way comes up with a perfect, foolproof plan that we can all agree on before we even start. Yep, shouldn't even think about discussing the topic until then. Status quo it is!

Glad that's settled.
Posted: Jul 15, 2007 7:23 pm
 
Glad that's settled.

me too. America fucking Rules!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted: Jul 15, 2007 7:59 pm
 
no the only solution to it is to discuss the shit on the goner board. yeah, thats a step in the right direction, sure to show RESULTS, baby!

america, fuck yeah!
Posted: Jul 15, 2007 9:36 pm
 
You hear that, people? No more discussing stupid shit on the goner board! Rape ape wants RESULTS! So, no more inane topics like

* rough week
* the ramones 1975
* psychiatry is voodoo junk science
* RAPE
* night time breakfast
* GDPR #38
* George Carlin's Solution to Save Gasoline:
* fuck i tunes
* Man clad in underwear pins leopard
* new GDPR
* show report
* holy fuck am i ever hungry for some spaghetti
* flower leperds

etc.
Posted: Jul 16, 2007 12:46 am
 
oh sure, personal attacks are another way to improve healthcare. youre on a roll today, baby! you should write a crappy one man band song about your helthcare laments and ideas...
Posted: Jul 16, 2007 12:55 am
 
Extensive work has been done on different voting systems and, more generally, on how to transform what voters are assumed to want into a coherent "collective preference." Of some interest has been the discovery that a general collective preference function cannot be derived from even seemingly mild conditions. This is often called Arrow's impossibility theorem. The theorem, an economic generalization of the voting paradox, suggests that voters have no reason to expect that, short of dictatorship, even the best rules for making collective decisions will lead to the kind of consistency attributed to individual choice.
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