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Goner Message Board / ???? / Donald Rumsfeld
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 5:52 pm
 
Just stepped down!!!
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 5:54 pm
 
Beat me to it! Bye bye rummy.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 6:00 pm
 
Good riddance to that war criminal, if only he were going to jail where he belongs
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 6:07 pm | Edited by: d diggler
 
wow!!! wow!!! wow!!! america rules!!!

did anybody see that pbs doc about what actually went down w/ the iraq war??? they were just gonna liberate an split an then rummy sent that j. paul bremmer over to run the show makin policy by himself, ignorin the generals (who, like it or not we've been trainin since they were kids to be experts. let them do their jobs...) an first started shootin at the looters an then fired sadam's army who the next day after they lost their paychecks an wre allowed to take their weapons w/ them started attackin the american forces the next day. nice fuckin job, rummy. good riddance.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 6:10 pm
 
pbs doc about what actually went down w/ the iraq war???
All of the Frontline series you can watch online. There are several and they are all great.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 6:10 pm
 
BOOO FUCKING YA!!!!
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 6:12 pm
 
Today is a good day.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 6:13 pm
 
Goddamn that was quick! Who's next? If the Dems get control of the senate, impeachment hearings will be firing up by summer.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 6:15 pm | Edited by: fierydrunk
 
The Frontline I saw was the one where they did the Connect the Dots with Rummy and Cheney. Scary as hell. Bye bye bitch!!!!!
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 6:15 pm
 
i loved how a couple of weeks ago rummy was tellin his critics to "back off." oh, sorry we got in the way of your dictatorship w/ our democracy. checks an balances. the foundin fathers were pretty smart.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 6:15 pm
 
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 6:18 pm
 
Can't wait.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 6:18 pm | Edited by: d diggler
 
even though it's pourin rain outside an i still haven't gotten my fuckin norton order w/ the new alarm clocks yet (over a week an still countin.) i agree w/bvalentine. today is a really, really good day.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 6:18 pm
 
I am masterbating under my desk!
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 6:20 pm
 
You should have seen Bush duck the question about his statement the other day that if the democrats win, the terrorists win...
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 6:25 pm | Edited by: d diggler
 
the terrorists won the day that war criminal sent our army over to fight an unwinnable war an started spendin all our tax money on one of their countries instead of our own. bring the troops home now!!!
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 6:26 pm
 
Maybe I won't die in a war this year after all.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 6:30 pm
 
It wasn't the right place to go. They should have finished the job in Afghanastan. But, it wasn't un-winnable, it was Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Cheyney and Bush wanting to win through Haliburton (i.e. outsourcing everything from KP duty to Security); they thought they could win a war through less military, less equipment, and more field support while winning contracts for their contributors. My brother served over there, and he said the problem wasn't Bush (my brother is a hardcore Republican), but was with the engineers (Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Cheyney), Bush is just a puppet.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 6:32 pm
 
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 6:34 pm
 
This is the only day I have ever wanted to listen to Rush Limbaugh
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 6:39 pm
 
Bush family made out like BANDITS with Iraq war. the war was simply a get rich and consolidate power sceme for the Bush family, follow the money trail: Dresser Industries acquires M.W. Kellogg and merges with Halliburton creating among other things KBR (Dick Cheney negotiated the $7.7-billion deal, reportedly having done so during a weekend of quail-hunting). unlimited no bid contracts to these companies in a conveniently war-torn Iraq brings unlimited wealth. this is not a joke. i feel sorry for anyone who was forced to serve in Iraq because their real enemy is the Bush family and its grotesque greed.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 6:48 pm
 
Doesn't MOTO support Bush/Rumsfeld?
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 6:48 pm
 
what you guys said is true but if ya ever look at a map of iraq it's surrounded by 6 "islamic facist" states an there's no way to seal up all those borders to keep the "insurgents" out. we shoulda never gone there in the first place. an i agree w/ robin (for once) that we shoulda just finished cleanin up afghanistan. we can't be fuckin around over there. what would we do if one of those countries started a war in mexico??? we should just take care of our own borders an airports an stuff. we can't be policemn to the entire world. an i'm glad yer brothr got back safely robin hardcore republican or not.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 6:53 pm
 
Bye bye Rummshit.
Please let the door hit you in the ass on your way out.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 6:55 pm
 
sorry Bush but the awful Rumsfeld stench will be taking a long time to leave the white house
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 7:00 pm
 
Bush is just a puppet.


It was his fault to take their bait. He wanted a strong Repub majority more than anything else. He was/is a fool.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 7:02 pm
 
exactly. why do you think they pulled 9/11 anyway. to draw us into the middle east an bankrupt us like they did to the russians in afghanistan an to generate more hate toward the us.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 7:17 pm
 
Bush is just a puppet.


It was his fault to take their bait.


I'm just saying, one military attitude is that they don't care where or why they have to go, they just go and do their job. The boss tells you to go, you don't question why. So, in that they look down on criticizing whatever Commander in Chief is in power, they recognize where the power and decisions come from.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 7:22 pm
 
don't anybody kid themselves, this is all about Bush family and their friends including the Saudis making LOADS OF MONEY.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 7:23 pm
 
Today is a good day.
today is a really, really good day.

I was out shopping for my catering gig and came home to find this out.
Hell yeah, today's a good day!! A really, really good day.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 7:28 pm
 
So, in that they look down on criticizing whatever Commander in Chief is in power, they recognize where the power and decisions come from

I hear you but I don't like it when people excuse Bush, even if they are the military who are brainwashed into not thinking about all this just to survive mentally. Sure the underlings were the real "evildoers" but he needs to own responsibility and Republican citizens need to give the business where the business is due. If Bush had not been so greedy to buy into this insane idea that the world is a better place with one party mandates, then we would all be in a much better place.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 7:29 pm
 
an just when you think it couldn't get any better i open my door an my norton order is sitiin there!!! woohoo!!! the alarm clocks album looks awesome!!! an the figures of light an the primitives single (even though i had it before but it cracked an needed a new one) an billy even threw in a complimentary copy of the alarm clocks single!!! norton rules!!!
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 7:34 pm
 
People are smiling and in a good mood today...
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 7:35 pm
 
No one at my job talks about politics so i have no idea what anyone in the world is doing until I leave. I am sure 80% voted republican here.

THIS JOB IS A JOKE!!!!!
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 7:36 pm
 
the military who are brainwashed

I agree that it seems unfair, and I understand what your point is. But, from a military perspective, they don't excuse Bush, but it is unproductive to criticize him. I'm still trying to get my hands on some of the songs the soldiers did on their downtime. Intriguing stuff. They'll allude to Bush, but never call his name. They'll flat out name Rumsfeld, Cheney and others.
You may not understand it, but their perception on not calling out ANY Commander-in-Chief is not brainwashing, it's a conscious decision while in the field.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 7:41 pm
 
but was with the engineers (Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Cheyney), Bush is just a puppet.

i hate talking politics. i do, because i can't convey things correctly and i'm not very eloquent, but while this rules that rumsfeld is stepping down, Gates is CIA chief and i'm a muswell hillbilly supporter/in aggreeance with and know that this probably isn't going to make a difference.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 7:42 pm
 
I am sure 80% voted republican here.


aren't you a social worker?
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 7:45 pm
 
Yeah, but I work in a opthalmology clinic in a huge medical school/healthcare system. This is like a little domain of conservatism (well, lets be nice and say IGNORANCE) in Portland. I am the only social worker on site. They have no idea what to think of me. Totally uncomfortable place to work.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 7:47 pm
 
they are all big bags of shit. rumsfeld gone. onto getting cheney testify about energy meetings. sweet.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 7:48 pm
 
You may not understand it, but their perception on not calling out ANY Commander-in-Chief is not brainwashing, it's a conscious decision while in the field.


Maybe not, but how do they get this idea? Someone must lay down the law that this is the way it is (to not criticize their "commander in chief") and then it is Groupthink from there--like the Thin Blue Line mentality. Maybe not formal brainwashing but a self-form of it. I understand to a point why they do it, believe me.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 7:50 pm
 
Yeah that Gates dude keeps creeping up in the ranks...gotta be something odious about him...
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 7:51 pm
 
rumsfeld resigned because he's gay and bush didnt want more scandal (bush is gay too but that's a covert secret not even the press can get at)
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 7:52 pm
 
There is a difference between showing discipline and being brainwashed. Personally, I have little respect for either when it's a group of invading militants. Just saying.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 7:52 pm
 
sometimes you gotta take what you get in this world an be grateful. (of course they're hangin rummmy out to dry. thy gotta do somethin in the face of practically the entire country votin against their stupid war.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 7:52 pm
 
but how do they get this idea
Since the Revolutionary war, ma'am.

The brainwashing thing actually comes into play with the "band of brothers" mentality (which has been around since before the Spartans). THAT is the part where returning soldiers have to be "debriefed", i.e. reminded, "hey, you actually really do have a real family at home". Sad but true.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 7:53 pm
 
There is a difference between showing discipline and being brainwashed.

It can be a very fine line.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 7:53 pm
 
Yeah that Gates dude keeps creeping up in the ranks
Has to be confirmed by Congress.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 7:56 pm
 
I keep forgetting we have a democratic congress!
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 7:58 pm
 

It can be a very fine line.


And that fine line is self-consciousness. I know plenty of soldiers. Have many in my family. They can explain to you exactly why you don't criticize your commander in chief when you're a soldier. That is discipline.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 8:03 pm | Edited by: Jack Stands
 
They can explain to you exactly why you don't criticize your commander in chief when you're a soldier. That is discipline.

Yep. It's not that they don't have ill feelings, they just don't expess it, and certainly not to civilians or press.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 8:11 pm
 
They can explain to you exactly why you don't criticize your commander in chief when you're a soldier.

This is total bullshit. Back when Clinton was president EVERYBODY here had these 3 dollar bills with Clinton's face on em hanging on there desk. Also, plenty anti-Clinton email joke fwds, cartoon strips, open conversation dirting Bill & Hilary. BUT NOW.... if you say ONE wrong thing about Bush or even have a slanderous bumper sticker on your car.... They'll light yer ass up.

So. It's ok for military personnel to openly dirt a Democratic administration... but you got to respect the Republican ones. Even though it's the Republican one that is getting us killed by the thousands.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 8:11 pm
 
OK, maybe they have "manners" then?
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 8:14 pm
 
bvalentine's post is where I am coming from. I would imagine it is much harder to openly disrespect your current commander-in-chief while freaking out over in Iraq everyday, because that would be completely upsetting your mental equillibrium...you would be disrespecting and second-guessing yourself.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 8:16 pm | Edited by: banned
 
BUT NOW.... if you say ONE wrong thing about Bush or even have a slanderous bumper sticker on your car.... They'll light yer ass up.

It's no more bullshit than the above statement is. I know plenty of enlisted men and women that constantly talk shit on the president. I've actually heard soldiers complain that nobody has assasinated the president yet. However, I know plenty of soldiers that do show discipline (all of them career soldiers), and it has absoulately nothing to do with respecting the current administration. I've discussed the issue with some of them, and although as I already mentioned I have no more respect for that than I do for the brainwashed, it does make sense in the context of being a soldier. It's understanding how things like that are rational in the context of being a solider that has prevented me from ever seriously considering joining up in the service, no matter how dire my situation has been.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 8:18 pm
 
This is total bullshit. Back when Clinton was president EVERYBODY here had these 3 dollar bills with Clinton's face on em hanging on there desk.

There is a difference in being "here" and being actively deployed. That's what I'm talking about.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 8:21 pm | Edited by: Jack Stands
 
And to banned's point, I'm sure there are those that do bash the President openly, but I think he would agree it's kind of a "no-no". Right or wrong, I'm just saying the attitude is common amongst the deployed.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 8:22 pm
 
From CNN:

In an extraordinary joint statement, more than 200 Socialist members of the European Parliament hailed the American election results as "the beginning of the end of a six-year nightmare for the world"
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 8:23 pm | Edited by: banned
 
Well, the only soldiers I've ever heard bash the president were not currently deployed. It's always people who are deployed and/or career military men/women who show the discipline we're talking about.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 8:24 pm
 
Well, whatever they have to do; it just seems fucking sad and pointless to hold onto that sort of thing, but who am I?
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 8:25 pm
 
Well, whatever they have to do; it just seems fucking sad and pointless to hold onto that sort of thing, but who am I?

Obviously not a solider risking his/her life... otherwise it would not seem pointless at all...
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 8:27 pm
 
Soldiers are risking their lives to speak their mind?
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 8:27 pm
 
Fiery, they do it so they can come home. It sounds like fucked up logic, but to the soldier on the ground, it is not productive to stand up in your foxhole and yell "why are we here?" The short answer is, "You better get your ass down and protect me. If you get shot, you ain't got my back". Not so many who are engaged are actually thinking about foreign policy.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 8:30 pm
 
I hate the military and don't care about their "code of honor". I can't imagine anything worse than being surrounded by a group of soldiers. They are not fighting for anything I support. Oh yeah...those terrorists are going to be fighting us here on our streets...I forgot...damn, guess I better start caring about my constitutional right to bear arms...
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 8:31 pm
 
That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever read.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 8:31 pm
 
You can destroy them with your sound.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 8:31 pm
 
That was my initial point somewhere back there, but I kept getting told I don't get it:

bvalentine's post is where I am coming from. I would imagine it is much harder to openly disrespect your current commander-in-chief while freaking out over in Iraq everyday, because that would be completely upsetting your mental equillibrium...you would be disrespecting and second-guessing yourself.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 8:32 pm
 
still waiting on news of dicks cheneys daughter shooting him in the face on their hunting trip...
dykes rule!
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 8:33 pm
 
You can destroy them with your sound.

I told you about my dream where we were in the 'Nam, and you were fighting 'em off with some turntables and a big sound system....
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 8:36 pm
 
That was my initial point somewhere back there, but I kept getting told I don't get it

Nobody said you didn't get it when you posted that...

People just wanna hate on the military. I don't blame them. As I've said repeatedly, I have no respect for their code of honor. If I was a soldier however, I'd abide by it, or I'd die. That's the choice you have. Are these people stupid for enlisting in the first place? Of course! Do they get what they deserve when they die? Unfortunately, yes, even the ones I care about. Is it the smart thing for them to do to make a conscious decision to follow a code that has helped people stay alive during war time since we evolved into humans? FUCK YES! Ya know, if they value their lives!
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 8:37 pm
 
Well put.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 8:45 pm
 
The point I was trying to make was: The Military (not everybody, but 95%) is mostly made up of conservative republicans. When a democrate was in office is was perfectly fine to openly joke about him and express your dislike in casual conversation. But now that a republican is in office, it is unheard of for anybody to joke or express an opinion about him.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 8:48 pm
 
I don't know about anyone else, but I don't "hate on" the military. I hate what they do sometimes, but I don't hate soldiers collectively simply b/c they are in the military. None of what I was saying was meant to intimate hating on the military...questioning how they operate on nearly every level? Sure.

I am not from a military family even if grandfathers were vets because they were of perfect age for WW2, but they didn't give a fuck about military this/military that, thank god. One of them lost his hearing over serving. I never heard either one ever discuss it; I read old letters from the South Pacific and it was awful. I also have pix of my grandfather and his buddies standing next to some indigineous man holding a Japanese soldiers head.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 8:48 pm
 
The Military (not everybody, but 95%) is mostly made up of conservative republicans. When a democrate was in office is was perfectly fine to openly joke about him and express your dislike in casual conversation. But now that a republican is in office, it is unheard of for anybody to joke or express an opinion about him.

And my point is, yer full of shit on this one.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 8:48 pm
 
i loved how a couple of weeks ago rummy was tellin his critics to "back off." oh, sorry we got in the way of your dictatorship w/ our democracy. checks an balances. the foundin fathers were pretty smart

first thing I thought when I heard the news!
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 8:49 pm | Edited by: Jack Stands
 
bvalentine,

That is true, too. I was just letting you know that the people that were deployed in Bosnia or Mogadishu probably kept their mouth shut.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 8:49 pm
 
Military (not everybody, but 95%)

I'm talking about most career military personnel and not necessarily the 18-19 year old kids just trying to get college money.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 8:51 pm
 
I'm talking about most career military personnel and not necessarily the 18-19 year old kids just trying to get college money.

Very well could be right with that then.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 8:51 pm
 
Jack Stands,

You're a Mogadishu.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 8:52 pm
 
Anyway, HAPPY FUCK A RUMSFELD DAY!!!
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 8:53 pm
 
YES INDEED!
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 8:54 pm
 
I AGREE!!!!
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 8:57 pm
 
the military is far from being filled with 95 percent conservative republicans. a lot of the military is enlisted because there is nothing else for them to do. many didn't have any employment opportunities elsewhere and many were part of a military family and just continued the tradition. many were forced into going into the military to avoid prison.

it's not the soldiers at all that should be hated on. it's the fucking administration who sets them up to be in a place they should have never been in the first place. the soldiers who are deployed DO have issues with the administration. they can't openly bitch about it because many of them are being censored all to shit and plus on top of that, they don't have the time to discuss politics when they're being shot at all around.

when you enlist in the military, yes you are signing up for a dangerous job and you are putting your life on the line in exchange for money. it is part of the job to shoot or be shot. just how it goes. yes, a life lost is very sad. but the risk of someone dying is pretty damn high right now. we're at war.
as far as enlisting, i certainly wouldn't do it, but i'm not stuck in a position where it would be one of my only options either.

problem i have is that the war we are engaged in is an unjust and unnecessary war. why have people die when they don't necessarily have to?
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 9:04 pm | Edited by: Womb Raider
 
I grew up in Virginia between Quantico marine base, Ft. Belvoir army base, the pentagon, etc. Probably half the people I went to school with were from military families of varying rank.. from base soldiers to pentagon generals to retired vets who now work for defense contractors.. I can say that most all of them were conservative republicans. Particularly the richer ones. I guess I might vote republican too if my job depended on a huge republican defense spending budget.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 9:05 pm
 
THE WORST THING AMERICA DID WAS GOT RID OF THE DRAFT.

I know I'm going to get stoned for saying that but it's true.

The only reason white upper-middle class students were so adamantly protesting in the street during the Vietnam War is because the war directly affected their cushy lives.

Middle & Upper America doesn't give a shit about the war. The average kid going in to the military is sold on a way out of a shitty situation they were born in to.

A recruiter tells you they are going to give you a several thousand dollar bonus, good job with good pay, full benefits, and after you're done everybody will be proud of you and you can go to college and get whatever job you want. That sounds damn good to an 18 year old kid in a small town or some kid from a poor family. And these are the kids that are dieing every fucking day. But you don't here from their family because their family is to busy trying to make ends meet. And besides, if they did say anything you'd have all these fucks pulling the "well nobody made them join" card out of their asses. The other reason you never hear from the family is; Mom and Dad doesn't want to believe their son died for a bullshit cause.

So. I say REINSTATE THE DRAFT. That's the ONLY way you're gonna make middle America get pissed again. When the privilege white kids are pulled out of their college classes to die for a bullshit cause, when the right millionaire's son's draft number comes up..... THAT'S when the people that get heard say something and when the politicians start to fucking listen.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 9:12 pm
 
There was a whole lot of very verbal resistance, from active soldiers in many cases, during Vietnam.

Here's a book about it:

The turning : a history of Vietnam Veterans Against the War / Andrew E. Hunt.
New York : New York University Press, c1999.

The anti-Vietnam War movement in the United States is perhaps best remembered for its young, counterculture student protesters. However, the Vietnam War was the first conflict in American history in which a substantial number of military personnel actively protested the war while it was in progress. InThe Turning, Andrew Hunt reclaims the history of the Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW), an organization that transformed the antiwar movement by placing Vietnam veterans in the forefront of the nationwide struggle to end the war. Misunderstood by both authorities and radicals alike, VVAW members were mostly young men who had served in Vietnam and returned profoundly disillusioned with the rationale for the war and with American conduct in Southeast Asia. Angry, impassioned, and uncompromisingly militant, the VVAW that Hunt chronicles in this first history of the organization posed a formidable threat to America's Vietnam policy and further contributed to the sense that the nation was under siege from within.Based on extensive interviews and in-depth primary research, including recently declassified government files,The Turningis a vivid history of the men who risked censures, stigma, even imprisonment for a cause they believed to be "an extended tour of duty."

I work with a guy who was very active in VVAW.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 9:16 pm
 
I know I'm going to get stoned for saying that but it's true.

I agree with your post to a point. However, the fact of the matter is, I think most upper/middle class people would have ways around the draft, so little would likely change anyway...
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 9:17 pm
 
There was a whole lot of very verbal resistance, from active soldiers in many cases, during Vietnam.

Veterans are not active soldiers.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 9:19 pm
 
My dad handily enrolled in college, got my mom pregnant and as she was in college too and there would be no income for the "family", dad's number did not come up. I think this was how it all worked.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 9:25 pm
 
I've been trying to maintain a not so gleeful facade all day among my mainly Republican co workers. It's been very difficult. Actually, my side of the room is as liberal as anyone in this office, so whenever the other 3 were out of the room, the three of us were talking about it.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 9:29 pm
 
I've been trying to maintain a not so gleeful facade all day among my mainly Republican co workers.

More than they'd likely do, in all honesty.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 9:33 pm
 
i've been tryin to maintain a not so gleeful facade all day

shouldn't be too hard for you!!!
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 9:36 pm
 
the republicans who currently have control of our country (including the guy who called the constitution of the united states "just a goddamn piece of paper") are the scum of the earth. to them people are expendable foot soldiers sentenced to death in the name of upper-class gain. i pity our poor country as it was fooled by the greedy crooks who now lead us into the gutter. it's a fucking sick joke. rumsfeld resignation only turns my already sick stomach. we have just been served 6 years of the biggest crock of bullshit ever spooned over the american public. Bushes have been trying to lever funds out of Iraq for years and years, it's been an obsession of theirs because they are obsessed with money and power. bush is a total phoney, he's a fucking blue blood northeasterner with a fucking southern "good old boy" accent. sorry but the military should have turned him into swiss cheese over this hoax before they enslaved themselves to a bogus war.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 9:41 pm | Edited by: bvalentine
 
I think most upper/middle class people would have ways around the draft, so little would likely change anyway...

We are just going to have to agree to disagree. Making the military 100% volunteer (100% nobodies) was genuis on their part.

I honestly believe if the military would have been 100% volunteer, you would have seen very little protesting of Vietnam.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 9:43 pm | Edited by: banned
 
As long as you see things in terms of "republicans" and "democrats" than you're part of the problem, and they've already won the battle for control of your mind.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 10:23 pm
 
i voted for myself for everything. i don't think i won though. i think they would have called by now.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 10:26 pm
 
No, you are a problem if you ONLY see things in terms of "Republicans" and "Democrats". The Republican Party has indeed been runnin thangs in Washington for years and has fucked up supremely. That is a fact and no one who believes that fact is a "problem".
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 10:27 pm
 
That above was fiery, not Hollis, of course.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 10:35 pm
 
Yeah, things are fucked up now... don't you remember how they were before? Clinton is the one who tried passing the Telecommunications Indecency Act. You people have short memories. To me making it illegal to say anything that the government felt was indecent over any recorded medium hits alot closer to home than some brown people being massacred on the other side of the world.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 10:36 pm
 
The TCA would have made it a crime punishable by prison to use the word "abortion" whether for or against it on any recordable medium, over a phone or through a computer. That was the democrats.

People are fucking stupid when it comes to politics, they base everything off their emotions.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 10:40 pm
 
clinton did a lotta fucked up shit like nafta, an exportin all our factory jobs to china an sellin out all over the place but he did balance the budget which was always thought to be impossible an everybody i know (myself included) were a hell of a lot better off financially while he was runnin shit.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 10:43 pm
 
So. I say REINSTATE THE DRAFT. That's the ONLY way you're gonna make middle America get pissed again. When the privilege white kids are pulled out of their college classes to die for a bullshit cause, when the right millionaire's son's draft number comes up..... THAT'S when the people that get heard say something and when the politicians start to fucking listen.

I can't tell you how much fear this strikes into the heart of a (lower) middle class mother with three boys, two of who are prime draft age now. While I agree to a point with you that the poor kids who go into the Army may think it's a sweet deal, poor kids are not the only ones they are recruiting. They've called my house, my kids' cellphones, they set up tables at the public High School, they are part of job fairs...so, what you're basically saying is that EVERY kid who goes to public school is a sucker just waiting to happen.
I've raised my kids to question, and I don't think they'd make very good soldiers. I'd hate for us all to go to jail (me too, as I would harbor them or do what I had to do) over something as stupid as defying the draft.
I am a pacifist, and have made no bones about that with my boys. If one of them was hell bent on going to war, well...then I'd just have to try and understand that that's what they believed in, and wanted to do. (Hell, Alex came in a couple of weeks ago and told me he wanted to be a pilot. That elicted about as much horror with me as if he'd told me he wanted to join the Army! But that's not my decision...)
I do not want my boys dying for what I think is an immoral war...a lie and a grab for all kinds of power I don't believe in.

People are fucking stupid when it comes to politics, they base everything off their emotions.
Well, yeah...I get emotional when I think about my amazing boys having their heads blown off for nothing they don't believe in.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 10:45 pm
 
And, I think the politicians in power heard something last night. That's what a VOTE is all about...
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 10:52 pm
 
People are fucking stupid when it comes to politics, they base everything off their emotions.

And you don't? C'mon now. Your freakout over the TELECOMMUNICATIONS ACT (I am laughing about that one) is just as emotional as us being freaked out over a dumb ass war where tons of different colored people are being killed and if you don't feel that, tons of our money getting wasted.

And if you look at that Telecommunciations Act, it was more than the Democrats. Oh wait, aren't you "part of the problem" if you are looking at things in terms of democrat and republican? You just like to be contrary and "right", banned. I think there is enough room for everyone's opinions.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 11:01 pm
 
Sure there is enough room for everyone's opinins, that doesn't mean you can't call bullshit when you see it. That Telecommunications Act was serious business. I was arrested for protesting that shit, and it was eventually turned over as unconstitutional by the Supreme Court.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 11:03 pm
 
...and duh, yeah, I'm proud to be a contrarian... and I'm usually right too, whether I like it or not.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 11:05 pm
 
Yeah that Gates dude keeps creeping up in the ranks
Has to be confirmed by Congress.

I keep forgetting we have a democratic congress!

Whoops. I forgot the new guys won't be in until January!
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 11:14 pm
 
The chimp always knows these things. And yeah...Gates was involved with Iran/Contra.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 11:24 pm
 
and I'm usually right too, whether I like it or not.

Ha! OK, Mr. banned.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 11:25 pm
 
things are looking up. I cant get too happy too early. Just need Cheney to get kidnapped or killed then its real cool.
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 11:28 pm
 
imagine what kinda shit they're gonna try an get away w/ until january!!!
Posted: Nov 8, 2006 11:35 pm
 
yep. I can't remember if they could possibly try to delay with the year-end Budget Balancing...
Posted: Nov 9, 2006 12:40 am | Edited by: Ronnie Farnsworth
 
When the privilege white kids are pulled out of their college classes to die for a bullshit cause, when the right millionaire's son's draft number comes up..... THAT'S when the people that get heard say something and when the politicians start to fucking listen.

No they don't. The privileged white kids and millionaires' sons get out of it anyway. That's what all those people that get heard are saying when they're talking, "My son's not going" or "Get my son out of that." That "not my kids" attitude is worse than ever among those ranks these days, so the draft more pointless than ever now. Christ, you think hippies were bad 35 years ago?
Posted: Nov 9, 2006 12:52 am
 
I don't see everything (really, anything) as Dem/Repub, but the current administration is corrupt and greedy and really, really stupid. What bugs me more than anything is even a chimp could see why we're in Iraq but by dealing with the lowest common denominator and focusing on completely unimportant issues which truly DO NOT AFFECT ANYONE VOTING AGAINST THESE MEASURES (abortion, gay marriage, etc.) they were able to take money out of my fucking pocket to fight a completely unecessary war. Oh, and kill innocent Iraqis & duty-bound soldiers on our side. Not all people shipped over there are evil. Duh.

All politicians are corrupt? Sure. But this administration is so vile that it makes Clinton's transgressions look like nuthin'.

even though it's pourin rain outside an i still haven't gotten my fuckin norton order w/ the new alarm clocks yet (over a week an still countin.)

It's been over two weeks since they cashed in my Paypal & I still haven't received the order. No Clocks, FOL, U-Turns, etc. Fuck!
Posted: Nov 9, 2006 1:18 am
 
You people have short memories

So do you, apparently, though I'll cut you some slack since you probably weren't around then:

Lewes, James, 1959-
Protest and survive : underground GI newspapers during the Vietnam War
Westport, Conn. : Praeger, 2003

Drawing from more than 120 newspapers, published between 1968 and 1970, this study explores the emergence of an anti-militarist subculture within the U.S. armed services. These activists took the position that individual GIs could best challenge their subordination by working in concert with like-minded servicemen through GI movement organizations whose behaviors and activities were then publicized in these underground newspapers. In examining this movement, Lewes focuses on their treatment of power and authority within the armed forces and how this mirrored the wider and more inclusive relations of power and authority in the United States. He argues that this opposition among servicemen was the primary motivation for the United States to withdraw from Vietnam. This first book length study of GI-published underground newspapers sheds light on the utility of alternative media for movements of social change, and provides information on how these movements are shaped by the environments in which they emerge. Lewes asserts that one cannot understand GI opposition as an extension of the civilian antiwar movement. Instead, it was the product of an embedded environment, whose inhabitants had been drafted or had enlisted to avoid the draft. They came from cities and small towns whose populations were often polarized between those who wholeheartedly supported the war and those who became progressively more critical of the need for Americans to be involved in Vietnam.

Moser, Richard R., 1952-
The new winter soldiers : GI and veteran dissent during the Vietnam era /
New Brunswick, NJ : Rutgers University Press, 1996.

Richard Moser uses interviews and personal stories of Vietnam veterans to offer a fundamentally new interpretation of the Vietnam War and the antiwar movement. Although the Vietnam War was the most important conflict of recent American history, its decisive battle was not fought in the jungles of Vietnam, or even in the streets of the United States, but rather in the hearts and minds of American soldiers. To a degree unprecedented in American history, soldiers and veterans acted to oppose the very war they waged. Tens of thousands of soldiers and veterans engaged in desperate conflicts with their superiors and opposed the war through peaceful protest, creating a mass movement of dissident organizations and underground newspapers. Moser shows how the antiwar soldiers lived out the long tradition of the citizen-soldier first created in the American Revolution and Civil War. Unlike those great upheavals of the past, the Vietnam War offered no way to fulfill the citizen-soldier's struggle for freedom and justice. Rather than abandoning such ideals, however, tens of thousands abandoned the war effort and instead fulfilled their heroic expectations in the movements for peace and justice. According to Moser, this transformation of warriors into peacemakers is the most important recent development of our military culture.

Lewes, James
Media History; Dec2001, Vol. 7 Issue 2, p137-150, 14p
Abstract: Discusses one of the least examined consequences of U.S. involvement in the Southeast Asian civil war, namely the brass's loss of legitimacy in the eyes of the significant number of those under command. GI cartoonists' depictions of President Nixon; GI underground press; Patterns of social organization and relationships through which GIs were empowered to break with the army and come out against the war.

I'm sure I can find lots more if you'd like.
Posted: Nov 9, 2006 1:48 am
 
Ironically, as Rumsfeld gets the boot, Daniel Ortega becomes Nicaragua's president for the first time since 1990.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americas/11/07/nicaragua.elections.reut/ index.html
Posted: Nov 9, 2006 1:53 am
 
finnark invokes librarian power!
Posted: Nov 9, 2006 2:32 am | Edited by: d diggler
 
hey todd, i got my order today about 5 minutes after i wrote that. i'm sure yours is on the way. norton rules!!!

(spinnin the alarm clocks for the third time today. woohoo!!! it's a killer diller!! the alarm clocks rule!!!)
Posted: Nov 9, 2006 3:30 am
 
Hey dudes: We got another liar! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Gates#Involvement_in_the_Iran-Cont ra_Scandal

Daddy says he's cool...
Posted: Nov 9, 2006 3:12 pm
 
Hey dudes: We got another liar! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Gates#Involvement_in_the_Iran-Cont ra_Scandal

Daddy says he's cool...



There's nothing "fresh" about Gates at all. All we got was a different name, same asshole.
Posted: Nov 9, 2006 4:47 pm
 
Posted: Nov 9, 2006 4:48 pm
 
Posted: Nov 10, 2006 8:38 pm
 
This just in from Time, Germany may bring charges aginst Rummy for prison abuse at Abu at Gitmo.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1557842,00.html

Posted Friday, Nov. 10, 2006
Just days after his resignation, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld is about to face more repercussions for his involvement in the troubled wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. New legal documents, to be filed next week with Germany's top prosecutor, will seek a criminal investigation and prosecution of Rumsfeld, along with Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, former CIA director George Tenet and other senior U.S. civilian and military officers, for their alleged roles in abuses committed at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison and at the U.S. detention facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

The plaintiffs in the case include 11 Iraqis who were prisoners at Abu Ghraib, as well as Mohammad al-Qahtani, a Saudi held at Guantanamo, whom the U.S. has identified as the so-called "20th hijacker" and a would-be participant in the 9/11 hijackings. As TIME first reported in June 2005, Qahtani underwent a "special interrogation plan," personally approved by Rumsfeld, which the U.S. says produced valuable intelligence. But to obtain it, according to the log of his interrogation and government reports, Qahtani was subjected to forced nudity, sexual humiliation, religious humiliation, prolonged stress positions, sleep deprivation and other controversial interrogation techniques.

Lawyers for the plaintiffs say that one of the witnesses who will testify on their behalf is former Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski, the one-time commander of all U.S. military prisons in Iraq. Karpinski who the lawyers say will be in Germany next week to publicly address her accusations in the case has issued a written statement to accompany the legal filing, which says, in part: "It was clear the knowledge and responsibility [for what happened at Abu Ghraib] goes all the way to the top of the chain of command to the Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld ."

A spokesperson for the Pentagon told TIME there would be no comment since the case has not yet been filed.

Along with Rumsfeld, Gonzales and Tenet, the other defendants in the case are Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence Stephen Cambone; former assistant attorney general Jay Bybee; former deputy assisant attorney general John Yoo; General Counsel for the Department of Defense William James Haynes II; and David S. Addington, Vice President Dick Cheney's chief of staff. Senior military officers named in the filing are General Ricardo Sanchez, the former top Army official in Iraq; Gen. Geoffrey Miller, the former commander of Guantanamo; senior Iraq commander, Major General Walter Wojdakowski; and Col. Thomas Pappas, the one-time head of military intelligence at Abu Ghraib.

Germany was chosen for the court filing because German law provides "universal jurisdiction" allowing for the prosecution of war crimes and related offenses that take place anywhere in the world. Indeed, a similar, but narrower, legal action was brought in Germany in 2004, which also sought the prosecution of Rumsfeld. The case provoked an angry response from Pentagon, and Rumsfeld himself was reportedly upset. Rumsfeld's spokesman at the time, Lawrence DiRita, called the case a "a big, big problem." U.S. officials made clear the case could adversely impact U.S.-Germany relations, and Rumsfeld indicated he would not attend a major security conference in Munich, where he was scheduled to be the keynote speaker, unless Germany disposed of the case. The day before the conference, a German prosecutor announced he would not pursue the matter, saying there was no indication that U.S. authorities and courts would not deal with allegations in the complaint.

In bringing the new case, however, the plaintiffs argue that circumstances have changed in two important ways. Rumsfeld's resignation, they say, means that the former Defense Secretary will lose the legal immunity usually accorded high government officials. Moreover, the plaintiffs argue that the German prosecutor's reasoning for rejecting the previous case that U.S. authorities were dealing with the issue has been proven wrong.

"The utter and complete failure of U.S. authorities to take any action to investigate high-level involvement in the torture program could not be clearer," says Michael Ratner, president of the Center for Constitutional Rights, a U.S.-based non-profit helping to bring the legal action in Germany. He also notes that the Military Commissions Act, a law passed by Congress earlier this year, effectively blocks prosecution in the U.S. of those involved in detention and interrogation abuses of foreigners held abroad in American custody going to back to Sept. 11, 2001. As a result, Ratner contends, the legal arguments underlying the German prosecutor's previous inaction no longer hold up.

Whatever the legal merits of the case, it is the latest example of efforts in Western Europe by critics of U.S. tactics in the war on terror to call those involved to account in court. In Germany, investigations are under way in parliament concerning cooperation between the CIA and German intelligence on rendition the kidnapping of suspected terrorists and their removal to third countries for interrogation. Other legal inquiries involving rendition are under way in both Italy and Spain.

U.S. officials have long feared that legal proceedings against "war criminals" could be used to settle political scores. In 1998, for example, former Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet whose military coup was supported by the Nixon administration was arrested in the U.K. and held for 16 months in an extradition battle led by a Spanish magistrate seeking to charge him with war crimes. He was ultimately released and returned to Chile. More recently, a Belgian court tried to bring charges against then Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon for alleged crimes against Palestinians.

For its part, the Bush Administration has rejected adherence to the International Criminal Court (ICC) on grounds that it could be used to unjustly prosecute U.S. officials. The ICC is the first permanent tribunal established to prosecute war crimes, genocide and other crimes against humanity.
Posted: Nov 11, 2006 2:24 pm
 
I know this is tiresome but I read this article and found it informative. It's written by the guy that challenged Rummy at his fake "press conference" a while back...http://www.tompaine.com/articles/2006/11/09/the_cheneygates_cab al.php

Hopefully congress will block this guy, but until dems get in there, it seems doubtful.
Posted: Nov 11, 2006 5:11 pm
 
a lot of the kids in iraq dont even know who rumsfeld is, they are doing a job. most of them,including my brother who is in iraq, dont do it b/c of some great patriotism. they dont know what else to do with their lives. before he was sent over he would openly talk shit about bush. i doubt he will do it now b/c it puts you in an odd situation where you doubt why youre killing people. he volunteered for this shit and he knows he got himself into it. sad but true. i hope the dems can figure out how to bring him home and hold bushco accountable for sending him there and getting 3000 thousand of his colleagues killed.

Marines' Reaction to the News: 'Who's Rumsfeld?'
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/10/world/middleeast/10marines.html?_r=1 &oref=slogin

"Rumsfeld's out," he said to five marines sprawled with rifles on the cold floor.

Lance Cpl. James L. Davis Jr. looked up from his cigarette. "Who's Rumsfeld?" he asked.

If history is any guide, many of the young men who endure the severest hardships and assume the greatest risks in the war in Iraq will become interested in politics and politicians later, when they are older and look back on their combat tours.

But not yet. Marine infantry units have traditionally been nonpolitical, to the point of stubbornly embracing a peculiar detachment from policy currents at home. It is a pillar of the corps' martial culture: those with the most at stake are among the least involved in the decisions that send them where they go.
Posted: Nov 11, 2006 9:26 pm
 
It's all sad for everybody. A huge socio economic death machine that has always, to some extent, existed. It rears it's head once a generation has lost memory of the futility of it. Iraq will probably end quickly and no one will remember it in 5 years, but we will suffer the psychological repercussions for a while. And Iraq won't crawl out of it for a generation at least.
Posted: Nov 11, 2006 9:52 pm
 
Yeah-hooey!
No Rumsfeld but Iran/Contra part two.
Conservative democrats vowing not to be vindictive against the president for all his bullshit.
Seems like we're in great shape/a pickle.
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